Looking at the Schapiro Group “Scientific” Survey

This survey was done in the fall of 2009, several months after CraigsList changed the Erotic Services section to Adult Services so that it could begin charging for ads and handing over the information to authorities if requested. Remember, this was in response to a huge national campaign accusing CraigsList of being a haven for underage prostitutes. It stands to reason that men who want the simplicity of paying for sex with an underage girl would look to CraigsList. The media did all the advertising work necessary for both sides of the possible exploitation equation (pimps and clients). Not to mention that since CraigsList was getting a lot of media attention, lots of people were perusing the Adult Services section, regardless of age preferences.

Their study finds that 23% of men in Georgia have tried to buy sex in one month. This is probably true. The usual self-reporting surveys in the US yield numbers of 6-15%, which any sex worker can tell you is artificially low. Quite honestly, the vast majority of clients are not on CraigsList, which means the percentage of clients could be even higher than 23%. They have to be to support the number of sex workers out there. The vast majority of these unnoticed interactions are between adults, not teens.

They also fail to note that the better clients are rarely found on CraigsList. This probably skews their survey sample a bit. They fail to factor in Craigslist’s dubious fame for underage prostitutes, which would draw those types (as noted above).

Sexual abuse of children is widespread in all levels of society. It should not be surprising that some of these men want to buy underage sex instead of attempting to satisfy their desires in a way that leaves them more open to arrest (I’m assuming this is their thought process). I’m not condoning their desires or actions in the least. I think this hints at the much larger societal problem of sexual abuse that isn’t being addressed with the vigor the anti-traffickers devote to the much smaller problem of exploited teens.

Though they bemoan the “normalization” of prostitution, it is, in fact, very, very normal. Not only throughout history but in the animal kingdom as well. Getting over the moral prudery and hand-wringing is important to able to address real problems. Some of these problems are caused by moral judgment and the resulting morality-based laws, some of these problems are genuine issues of exploitation (which is the focus of this survey).

Their phone survey was of 218 men who responded to ads of “crude[ly] described sex services” placed on CraigsList, Backpage and other unnamed advertising sites. They only had responses from CL and BP, the vast majority of responses from CL. As a working escort, I can tell you right now that writing crude, sexual ads tends to attract undesirable clients — and may be a factor in why they were not successful on the other sites. This does not mean these men are all potential child molesters; only that they probably want to spend less money, be more sex-focused (instead of looking for a holistic experience) and possibly less educated. Though they don’t specify the rates they were charging, I’m sure they were low, too. This survey is also skewed to clients who may not be willing or able to pass screening with experienced sex workers.

Their ads included words like “young”, “sweet” and “girl.” Those are certainly indicators of freshness and youth (though it never guarantees who will show up at your door). Most clients don’t see them as indicators of someone under 18 because the majority do not want to have sex with someone underage, and the words are used a lot in advertising. The clients are just hoping for someone not hard and jaded (caution: stereotypes at work).

The majority of their surveyed men were 39 or younger (78%). It’s not unreasonable they might find a woman in the 18-25 age range sexually appealing. The biggest problem with their stats is that though the men questioned wanted a girl who was 19 or in her early 20s, they wanted her to look young. Somehow, this is twisted into believing that all these men want an underage teen. Not true. “Young” is a very relative term and the under-18 crowd does not have a patent on it. Nor is it surprising that after responding to those ads, the men generally were not interested in an older woman (though they did not specify what was considered “older”). And asking for someone in a schoolgirl uniform is just a very tired fantasy. Everyone gets that one. Even sex workers in their 40s get those requests. It’s not an indicator of anything but a limited imagination.

A percentage of men (12%) did not indicate any age preference. This does not mean they actually want to have sex with a teenager. It could very easily mean they assume anyone in this business is over 18. An unwise assumption on their part, but certainly not enough to put them into the exploiter category.

Though I wasn’t aware of it being a myth, they said this survey disproves the notion that teen sexual exploitation only happens in a city’s “urban core.” No shit — when you advertise online, you dramatically broaden your reach. That’s the point.

They had “highly-trained” phone operators taking the calls from the ads (soliciting via phone also yields a different type of client than email-only contact) would have a discussion with the potential clients about “buying sex.” They do not detail how explicit the discussions got. If the discussions became explicit, any sensible client would quit the call because buying sex is illegal and discussing it over a possibly-tapped phone is a bad idea. This could have narrowed their survey field even further. (They never mention how many calls they lost.) Crude conversations also appeal to less-desirable clients.

They also apparently got a lot of men who claimed it was their first time (60%). I’m just laughing at that one.

At the end of the call, they asked three more questions which made it highly likely the girl in question was underage. Here’s where my math differs from theirs. At the end of the third question, I come up with 35% of the callers ready to proceed despite the warnings, not 47% (granted, a small difference and I’m not a statistician). Based on their 47% number, they conclude that nearly half of all clients (42%) seek out young girls or ignore warning signs that the girl is under 18. And, they conclude that 4 out of 10 clients in Georgia are at risk of paying for sex with an underage girl.

Those numbers are indeed staggering. It does make me wonder: Where are all these underage teens hiding online? Is there really that big of a problem? How can an adult sex worker in Georgia possibly hope to make a living? And, 4 out of 10 clients possibly patronize underage girls? Really?

In the nitty gritty stats, they run numbers to conclude that teenage girls working in Georgia get an average of 3 clients/night. I guess it depends what they’re charging — that influences volume more than any other factor. I’m sure every adult sex worker in Georgia wishes to be so consistently popular. It sounds like the industry in GA was extremely robust in the economic climate of late 2009. At least if you’re “young.”

Their recommendations page is very sane, mostly focusing on educating Georgia men to the potential problem. They still seem to think that men travel to GA to have sex with young girls (especially since 9% of their respondents were from airport hotels). No, the men just travel for business. The sex is totally opportunistic or at most, a side benefit of traveling. People always behave differently away from home. Teen sex is not their purpose in traveling. They feel that only 3-4% of men actually seek out paid sex with underage girls. Of course, the point of their study was about the much higher percentage of men who are accidentally guilty or who simply fail to care.

If the numbers in their study is accurate, it’s a huge problem. I want sex workers in Atlanta to weigh in on this. It just seems so unlikely that there are actually that many teens in the business to keep these numbers humming. I still have a problem with the extrapolated numbers of clients willing to have sex with underage girls. I will never argue that the industry is huge but the vast majority of clients give all indications of wanting sex with legal adults. So are we simply talking numbers even larger than I think? Or is this a heavily-flawed survey?

The one and only time I worked in Atlanta was 2004. I really liked the clients and though I had no issue keeping myself as busy as I wanted to be, I was a grizzled old 28. So maybe there really is the huge market for “young” girls out there. Obviously, I missed my window of opportunity (wasted it in Texas, damn it).

(They also collected data on incall vs outcall. A slight majority preferred outcall. I’m guessing a fair amount of travelers. It’s amusing that they’re not sure what to make of it. It’s just business and has nothing to do with the age of the girl. It’s all about convenience for him.)

Apparently the Shapiro Group is also partly responsible for some of these stats, some of which are ridiculous or plain unbelievable.

60 Responses

  1. don’t you know that escort ads have blurred faces to hide the fact that they are teenagers ?

    according to this dept of homeland security jackass who wanted to snoop into somebody’s yahoo email account

    http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/dhs-nsfw

    they don’t do this research because they actually want to know the truth……. they aren’t looking to learn anything from it…… they only do it to further a political agenda and the only information they will publish is the information that supports their agenda.

    telling half the truth is the same as lying.

    and when you do it at the expense of others, THAT’S exploitation.

    thanks shapiro… .thank you so much for falsely reporting data skewed in such a way as to suit your agenda and making it difficult for me to advertise and pay my rent.

    thank you washington post for publishing the story of those 2 trafficking victims who were pleading for craigslist shut down… ..

    thank you attorney general for your caring response to this horrendous victimization of women.

    by the way, did anybody notice the sexworkers who have been marching and pleading and screaming and crying and holding protest signs in front of political offices and writing letters to politicians for the past 5-10 years ??

    anybody notice that ???? washington post ??? was the front page already taken those days ??? what about page 87 or so ???? was it mentioned at all ???? ever ???

    did you want to see the videos these victims made ??

    hmmmm ???

    i wont be holding my breath waiting for the washington post, the shapiro group or any attorney general to call me to “research” that because the information that i have, they don’t want to know.

    i dont have to ask any sex worker organization how many times they have recieved phone calls from an attorney general or the washington post or the shapiro group.

    the answer is obvious…. to any sexworker.

  2. I love how you believe the statistics that reinforce your assumptions, and call the ones that don’t “ridiculous and unbelievable”.

  3. When I read the methodology of the paper I had a hard time fathoming what I was reading. The ethical violations in this study are down-right career ending. Had a university or other reputable research institution been affiliated with this research they would have had their institutional review board’s certification revoked which would mean that they would not be able to perform *any* social science or biomedical research involving humans. Ever; or at least for a very, very long time. Scientific journals, for the same reason, will not publish a study such as this one.

    What did they do wrong that’s so horrible?

    1) They fraudulently recruited their subjects into their research through misrepresenting the purpose of their advertisements as other-than-research. Furthermore, when contacted by the potential participant they furthered their charade thus denying their participants of informed consent of any kind.

    2) I’ll repeat that again, because it’s a big one: NO INFORMED CONSENT. The participant was not given the opportunity to decline to participate with enough knowledge to properly weigh his or her decision.

    3) They induced participants to engage in activity that may be incompatible with the participant’s morality (let alone illegal), again without informed consent, by encouraging them to a) buy sex and b) purchase sex with someone who may be underage. It doesn’t matter whether or not it was actually what they were doing, only that they, at the time, believe that is what they are doing. Stanly Milgram’s study, where participants were made to believe that they were administering fatal electric shocks to another human being and one of the major reasons these ethical standards were established, is evidence enough of that. It is not beyond reasonable expectation that a participant, having come to the realization that he had agreed to buy sex from a minor, may be seriously harmed by the research.

    4) Failure to debrief the participant at all, especially considering deception was used.

    The only time a person would be exempt from these restrictions (normally) would be if they were doing naturalistic research. That is, they were unobtrusively observing people without interacting with them in any way and in a place where people would have no expectation of privacy.

    I can’t really take their results seriously. It’s obvious that the institution which has conducted this research is not a reputable scientific body nor has it demonstrated itself to be at all concerned with research ethics. On top of that, the study seems to be funded by an anti-prostitution organization which, combined with the shady ethical standards of the research organization, the clearly agenda-driven language in the report, and the almost nonexistent methodological data making it impossible to scientifically evaluate makes it impossible to trust.

    And no, I’m not accusing them of fabricating data. Rather, I am dubious about the methodological integrity. Any social scientist knows how easy it is to manipulate data through slanted questioning. The group which performed the study, being incapable of securing grant money for legitimate inquiry, is in the business of getting results favorable to their clientèle and their client, in this case, clearly has an agenda. While this doesn’t mean, necessarily, that the results are dishonest it is enough to call them into question.

    No scientist will take this study seriously. But, then again, this study wasn’t meant to cater toward the scientific community. It was meant for the consumption of the general public and politicians, who likely don’t know any better, in order to further a political agenda.

  4. As is “normal” in cases like this, the survey was pandering to the fear and loathing of the general public. (The general public, as we think of it, still holds onto the antiquated and highly Puritanical hatred of pleasure. Especially sexual pleasure.) These kinds of surveys and the groups who sponsor them are titillated by the idea of shutting down sex-workers.

    If that means hollering “wolf” as many times as possible, in the guise of finding underage prostitutes and human trafficking where there isn’t any, then they will do so. Although I’m not saying that such things don’t / didn’t happen, it’s the standard cry when sex work is talked about. That, or that ALL women are victims of this (which we know is hogwash).

    If such surveys weren’t so dangerous for sex workers of all stripes and ages (over 18 and up), it would be laughable. The danger inherent in such surveys, however, is that lives are ruined, both client and sex worker.

    Would that we had a more open-minded “general public.” Such surveys wouldn’t have a leg to stand on.

  5. @JoleneT: Don’t kid yourself, underage sex workers are hurt by this kind of rhetoric, too. What happens when the culture of criminalization prevents an underage worker from feeling like she can seek help? What happens when anti-prostitution fervor makes it impossible for a john to go to the police when he finds out that his date is a youth, or a slave? What happens when anti-prostitution fervor force even worse working conditions on child sex workers (they have to deal with working conditions, too)? What happens when the campaign to end prostitution forces a child slave’s business so far underground she’s not able to meet quota? What happens to her, then?

    It’s one of the reasons I’m so infuriated by the so-called anti-trafficking crusaders. They purport that what they do helps child sex workers, that it helps sex slaves when in reality it hurts them just like it hurts free workers, maybe even more.

  6. I didn’t intend to undercut the importance of getting underage sex workers out of the business or that such surveys wouldn’t hurt them either. I understand fully that such surveys tend to drive those who exploit these young people further underground.

    My point is and remains, however, that for those of us who are not underage, it interferes with our choice of work and our choice of how to earn our living.

    These kinds of surveys aren’t really trying to help the underage or slaves or trafficked humanity so much as trying to drive us out of our chosen business. The surveyors’ cry is designed to muddy the waters. The general public takes up the red herring of these kinds of surveys and mindlessly lumps all sex workers as victims, too.

  7. You ladies sure have a ton of contempt for the general public. It seems that if one holds the idea that selling your body, or buying another’s body is, well, sleazy, that automatically makes them a bible thumping prude.

    Seems like you think the only people who aren’t prudes are the ones who do it for money.

    Such defensiveness and anger from you, could it be you know what you’re doing is wrong but you just like the money too much?

  8. >>>It seems that if one holds the idea that selling your body, or buying another’s body is, well, sleazy, that automatically makes them a bible thumping prude.>>>

    Yes, whybother, we think that anyone who objects to sex work is a prude, whether they thump a bible or not.

    >>>Seems like you think the only people who aren’t prudes are the ones who do it for money.>>>

    You’re mind-reading powers are astounding.

    >>>Such defensiveness and anger from you, could it be you know what you’re doing is wrong but you just like the money too much?>>>

    Not only do you have astonishing mind-reading powers, you also have astonishing empathic powers.

    Since I’m a Star Trek fan, I’d say that you are the love-child of Mr. Spock and Deanna Troi.

  9. Jenna,

    Thank you for joining us here. I like your anger.

    Untoward Lady,

    I agree that their study was flawed. I don’t know much about research methods but I had an inkling theirs was NOT “scientific” (which is why I put it in quote marks). On the other hand, I write about a lot of things based on my own experiences and those of others — none of which is scientifically-gathered either.

    Indeed, the problem is this study is for a political agenda and for that purpose — it’s going to be believed as absolute truth. Sigh.

    Jolene,
    Everything you said. And everything Untoward Lady said too. Continuing to criminalize prostitution (as these studies seem to reinforce) only serves to harm more victims. Nothing good comes out of these studies, except perhaps more money is thrown at a “problem” and no one is open to real solutions.

    XX

  10. I have a study idea!!! Why didn’t they spend time calling the competing ads and see if they could pay to have sex with a teen? I’m curious how successful they might have been?

    Or…find currently-working teens in Atlanta and interview them about their clientele. There’s a thought.

    XX

  11. @whybother

    I have no contempt for the general public.
    Just stupidity.

    The bible most certainly DOES NOT oppose sexwork.

    Maybe you should stop thumping it so much and READ IT, my lil retarded friend.

  12. I contacted the lead researcher back in June to ask him about how he got past informed consent. It might be that it varies by discipline, but it also tweaked my radar. I’ve worked on research for public health projects and psychology projects and this would not pass as as ethical from what I’m familiar with. The lead researcher mentioned that informed consent is not employed in all research (as mentioned on the comments too) and said the yard stick they used was 1) would the study cause harm? 2) would the benefits outweigh the risks? He summed it up that under these parameters, they felt very comfortable with their guidelines. I tried to keep the email dialogue flowing but he didn’t seem interested in that. Defensive? Possibly. It felt that way, but email lacks emotional tone so maybe he was just busy.

    What rings strange for me is that in my practical experience working in nighclubs, most men aren’t interested in children either and react strongly if they think someone is underage. But some men do want young-looking and skinny, or plump, baby-fat young. I’ve never seen an underage girl work in a nightclub setting because their ID’s are checked and they have to be at least 18, if not 21. There is a market for the young ones, but I wouldn’t say the market demand exceeeds the supply, nor that for women 30+. There are some that excitedly pursue the youngest (which may look 15 even tho’ they might be 21) and these youngest have shared stories about this pursuit (which they find creepy because 20 yrs olds tend to find 40 yrs men that are into them creepy–I know I did), so I’m not surprised there are men that want this, but that doesn’t mean they want someone underage necessarily.

    Also, different states have different laws of when sexual consent is considered legal. Different countries do too. I find men who seek to have sex with someone who is easily manipulated (a teen or someone economically desperate) rather horrifying but putting aside my personal bias (I was molested as a child), I can imagine that if the age of consent is in place, that it is possible that the situation is in fact consensual.

    There are always going to be men who enjoy taking advantage of someone 1) niave 2) drunk 3) desperate 4) very young–but in my experience, most are not like this, even the “douche-bag” types. They are mostly full of hot air, relieving themselves from the stress of their week. I think a big gap in the study is that the Shapiro Group does not mention how young the women or girls “appear” to be–just under 18. In some states the age of consent is 16. What if they theoretically appear 17? The panel that this presentation was part of, was concerned about girls as young as 11 and 12 yrs old arrested for prostitution and their efforts were to change the criminalization of children who were essentially without a guardian, who were living on survival sex. But conducting a study where the theoretical girls adverised are “young and maybe under 18″ is different than girls who are clearly children (which about pedophiles).

  13. Parker,

    I think you are touching on an interesting topic. There are plenty of men who like the idea of having sex with a young girl — in fantasy, not in practice. In practice, they want sex with a willing partner who has their adult faculties in place — these men don’t actually want to cause emotional harm. Hence, the pursuit of very young-looking women of adult age.

    I’m not saying this is healthy or that the young, adult women are turned on by the idea (yeah, ick). But again, if all are adults making their own choices — fantasy is fantasy.

    Your final paragraph is just one big “YES!” for me. Excellent points through and through.

    XX

  14. @Parker: the Shapiro Group is right that informed consent is not required under all research methodologies. For example, if you’re unobtrusively observing non-personally-identifiable individuals without reasonable expectation of privacy (for example, in a shopping mall) you can gather data without informed consent.

    The only circumstance that I can conceive of where informed consent may be ethically waved would be when a researcher manipulates something in the environment, such that there is no conceivable chance for harm, and then proceeds to unobtrusively observe individuals within the area. An example of this might be installing a “children at play” sign on a road and proceeding to observe traffic speeds. I will note that even this level of interaction requires the approval of an institutional review board.

    The Shapiro study unquestionably went beyond the point where informed consent is required by mere nature of having researchers directly interacting with participants. On top of that, the use of deception and the potential for harm seal the matter.

    What the Shapiro Group does not understand is that, while they concluded the research to be safe (a claim I do not agree with), the process of informed consent is intended to allow the potential participant to weigh the risks and make that determination on their own. Informed consent is designed to prevent institutions from doing exactly what the Shapiro Group did in imposing their own template of acceptable risk on their participants.

    * I do believe that the Shapiro study is incredibly unethical. What they did was they presumed to present the opportunity to buy child sex to their participants, an act which most people would find horrific. The study ran the risk of a participant agreeing to buy child sex who otherwise holds moral beliefs that such an act is horrific. Supposedly, this prototypical participant would not have agreed to buy child sex under normal conditions but even participants who would have, or will again, could hold personal beliefs which, being incompatible with their actions, run the risk of serious psychological harm.

    @Jenna Purr: Please, before you use language such as “retarded” in the future, remember that there are many people with intellectual disabilities who deserve, but who rarely are, treated with respect and humanity. What does it say about these people, then, when people use language comparing others to them as a means to belittle and insult?

    What does it say about sex workers when people refer to an undesirable woman as a “whore”?

    [/derail]

  15. Just had a funny thought…wonder if any of the Shapiro-study callers were in fact other researchers attempting to quantify how much underage sex is for sale on CraigsList? Granted, the chance of this interaction is tiny but the Keystone Cop/Researcher aspect is amusing.

    XX

  16. @Susan

    Why do you have to classify someone that disagrees with you as a prude? I’m sure you’ve heard the expression, “minds are like parachutes, they only work when they’re open” before. Perhaps you have a closed mind on the matter. I’d be interested in knowing what exactly it is that keeps your mind closed about this, although I admit, my money’s on it being money. And while I may be considered a prude in THIS particular community, in relation to the larger community (at least in the U.S.), objection to prostitution does not make one a prude. I think it’s also interesting to note that prude is the root form of prudence, or sound judgment in practical terms. I also don’t think that Picard would want his daughter to be a prostitute, but I’m sure he’d love her even if she were.

    @Jenna

    I’m noticing a trend here among the women that disagree with my assertion that prostitution is morally wrong: namecalling. Anyone who disagrees with you is stupid, retarded, a prude, etc. Why the need to label people? I would think that as a group who fights being labeled as less then people, and marginalized by society, you’d reject the impulse to do it to others simply because they disagree. I can understand the anger towards politicians that put women at risk as in the recent craigslist rulings, but why such venom towards people who merely disagree?

    As for me being a bible thumper…no. I’ve never once wanted to worship a God that would punish me for not doing so. Never. That being said, I don’t hate Christians, and I see the stupid ones as fearful people that are generally exploited. Yes, even when they’re hateful. Hate doesn’t come from a happy person, generally. But since you brought it up, I figured I’d google it and find out. Now obviously this was not in any way an exhaustive research but what I found was this:

    “A prostitute is a deep pit; an adulterous woman is treacherous. She hides and waits like a robber, looking for another victim who will be unfaithful to his wife.”

    Proverbs 23:27-28

    “For the lips of an immoral woman drip honey, And her mouth is smoother than oil; But in the end she is bitter as wormwood, Sharp as a two-edged sword. Her feet go down to death, Her steps lay hold of hell”

    Proverbs 5:3-5

    That and that Jesus stopped the stoning of a prostitute done by the Pharisees and said that anyone that throws a stone at her would be just as evil as one who would stone him. He did, however, give her a slap on the wrist and tell her to sin no more. Gotta love Jesus, such a compassionate guy. Honestly I’d say that’s about how I feel, really. I don’t think any of you should be stoned, but I do think you’re kinda self centered. I’m sure you’re all real careful with condoms and all, but herpes, and hpv can be spread even WITH the use of condoms and well, how would you feel if you found out YOUR husband was not only cheating on you, but putting you at risk for those diseases?

    I would be very interested in seeing instances in which the bible does support prostitution though.

  17. @Untoward Lady

    How would they do the research if there was informed consent? Nobody’s going to ADMIT to being interested in sex with underage prostitutes, human trafficking and the like.

  18. @Amanda,

    Please, these are professional researchers… Of course they already called the competing ads to see if they could buy sex from minors.. But the results were “inaccurate” and useless once they hit the shredder.

    I’m quite sure they’ve SCOURED craigslist ads for the word “young” and called EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. …. cha ching, cha ching … . just think of the big score THAT would have brought them…. oooohh that would’ve put them straight into BONUS LAND..

    no ambiguous words needed there
    WE BOUGHT A CHILD PROSTITUTE ON CRAIGSLIST … .. HERE SHE IS .. .. (put her on.. c’mon, hurry up jackass, that brat could turn 18 any minute)

    aaaaw, i guess it’s too late for you to do that big story now. (sad face)
    ————————————
    In other news:
    Anybody ever hear of a website that got busted for being an online child prostitution ring ?
    ever ??

    I wonder if that jackass from Dept of Homeland Security is waiting for those kids to grow up ?? He applied for the warrant posted on the smoking gun website, over 2 years ago….. so what happened ??? I been sort of worried about these kids and I keep waiting for the big story, its been YEARS…. for the love of all children, BUST THAT SH*T UP DUDE… c’mon.

    WTF ??

    i did hear of a few websites that were busted for being prostitution rings that WEREN’T involving children..

    The only bust i’m aware of that Dept of Homeland Security was involved in was the MN Nice Guys & MFP… . which NEVER involved children AT ALL…. nobody was even close to being under-aged.

    But would a judge still sign the warrant if the people involved were consenting adults working of their own free will ? Judges are REALLY reasonable….. I dont think they would encourage FEDERAL AGENTS FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY to waste their time on that kind of investigation.

    So do these cops and agents purposely lie about children being involved so that they can spend their work day looking at boobies…..booooooo – beeeeez…. ??

    Nah.. …these guys are federal agents….. really, guys aren’t pigs…. of course, pigs are……

    Anybody else think maybe more women cops should be working vice ?

    im just saying, something stinks and it could be the pigsty needs to be…… scooped out.

  19. Whybother,

    What you are trying to do by coming here posting is called “slut-shaming”, and it’s not going to work. Do you really think you’re the first person to try this? You’re certainly not the first person in the history of humankind.

    My suggestion to you is either to get laid, or get a life. And it looks like you haven’t done either in a long while.

  20. @Susan

    >> My suggestion to you is either to get laid, or get a life.

    *laughs* It’s been a long time since I’ve seen a problem which could be solved easily by throwing money at it.

  21. Susan,

    If anyone reading this blog decides to quit the business because they’ve decided it’s ultimately immoral and soul-crushing…do you really think they’d be the first?

    I’m glad you have a name for it tho. Again with the labeling!

  22. Untoward Lady: I’m not defending The Shapiro Group (perhaps trying to be diplomatic) and frankly their methodology seems unethical to me. The point you raise about their offering the purchase of adolescent sex (stigmatized therefore a situation of emotional harm) as opposed to the fantasy of a “young-appearing” women is a good one.

    Whybother: The discussion about ethics is very important to researchers and there are laws surrounding this. The use of ethics do not condone a behavior studied nor condemn it. They merely provide emotional and legal safety to the people involved.

  23. @whybother,

    Why do you care about prostitutes? What do you base your opinion on? Obviously you haven’t done much homework on the topic as your views are cliche. But why come here?

  24. Jenna,

    Ha! Good points!

    XX

  25. Jill,

    whybother came here to preach. The arrogance of his beliefs don’t allow him to think that we’re not interested in his words. That we’ve heard his beliefs before and that we’re choosing a different lifestyle than his is beyond his ken. Nor does he wish to make a concerted effort to find out why we do what we do; he feels that if he throws out enough verses from his particular book of belief (or lore and myth, depending on your outlook), we stop thinking for ourselves and join with him.

    Many preachers, like he has apparently done, forget this little gem: Luke 9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.

    Since whybother seems to think we’ll listen to his preaching, he will continue to preach, forgetting that the verse above applies here online as well as door-to-door.

    This isn’t to say that whybother is himself (herself) arrogant, but his / her religion is.

    Oh, and whybother, if I were angry at the general public, I’d have used a lot of exclamation points. As it is, I’ve lived long enough not to be too surprised about how the general public responds to most things.

    This is for you, whybother, from MY religion: “All acts of love and pleasure are my rituals.”

  26. Another post, another round of insults towards me for having a differing opinion. And another person who fails to have read that I’m not religious.

    I fail to see how sleeping with other women’s husbands or boyfriends for money is moral. It’s deceitful, and it puts an innocent person at risk for std’s without their knowledge. Including hpv, which can cause cervical cancer in women. Obviously it can also cause divorce which is generally not good for children, especially when infidelity is involved.

    All I’m looking for is an answer to that question, if any of you can provide it.

  27. @whybother,

    You continue to push the mantra of women’s husbands or boyfriends being the victim. Sex workers don’t force these men into anything. The husbands and boyfriends are making conscious choices to hire a sex worker.

    I have zero sympathy for the clients. They make their own choices. Which is a fair situation because I haven’t found clients were sympathetic characters either. If you are looking for the moral bad guy, my bet is on the client. I have no contract of marriage or promise of love with a client. However, if he is married and has children, or is a boyfriend or whatever, and he cheats on his wife or girlfriend, that is his moral issue.

    I’m a part time sex worker that does it out of need for money that I can’t derive from any other source because of scheduling issues with a full time non sex work job with a very fluid schedule. Clients call a service and hire me. I don’t solicit them. I don’t know their wives or girlfriends or children nor do I have any agreement with them. But he, the client does.

    Personally I have a low opinion of clients in general. But then again, I don’t care for customers in any job. ;)

    In response to your previous posts in other threads. I don’t make a great deal of money in sex work. Neither do most. Most of us make what we need to survive.

    Your bad guy, Whybother, is the clients. You will never sell me on it being different. You can look up my history if you care to know why. Or you can ask.
    But you asked for an answer. There is your answer.

  28. whybother, if you aren’t religious, then WHY did you bring in the posts from a book you don’t believe in? As to knowing whether you were religious or not, I can only go by the posts you’ve made here. None of them here remotely stated you aren’t religious.

    As for morality and deceit, I agree with Jill: I’m not the one who made the promise of sexual fidelity, therefore, I’m not the one who broke it. I’m not the one who promised to forsake all others, therefore I have no one to forsake.

    It is their choice to call me, just as it is my choice to say yes or no.

    As for STIs, it’s a safer bet that a man will pick them up from a casual hookup and non-sex-workers than from any one of us. That’s because most non-sex-workers don’t use protection and most sex-workers do use it.

    In any case, we’re getting far afield from the OP, which is how the survey sucked because of

    1) its lack of objectivity,
    2) correct methodology,
    3) non-informed consent and
    4) lack of convincing evidence that there are more underage sex workers than there really is

    That said, the next logical question for me would be, “Shall we do a survey that has ALL the things lacking in this one – and make our public?” (Thereby scaring the general public because they don’t want to know how often clients and sex-workers get together.)

  29. It’s obvious that you have no sympathy for the clients, or you wouldn’t be exploiting them. I see you have no sympathy for their wives or children either. Or at least you can’t seem to see your own role in their potential misery or health issues. Don’t think that I judge you too harshly though. I am aware that we all must make sacrifices in order to make ends meet, and for that I have sympathy. But I pity the sex workers that completely disavow themselves of their role in harming the clients wives and families, if they do indeed have a CHOICE of doing something else.

    I’m also suspect of your claims that it’s not high paying. Pretty much everything I’ve read about it (mostly from blogs of women who do it) unanimously rave about the money.

    Complete and total dismissal of any personal responsibility for your own actions. It’s all someone else’s fault.

    I’m not trying to be mean here, but that’s just the way I see it.

    Taking advantage of human appetite for profit, with no concern for that individual’s well-being. I’m speaking of course of being a heroin dealer.

    You may be able to convince me that this analogy is wrong, and I’m sure in some, or even MANY cases it’s waaay off base, but in some it’s not.

  30. I never said I don’t take personal responsibility. But that’s just it – I take responsibility for MY choices. From the sounds of it, each woman on here takes responsibility for their own actions. I have enough to work with in my own life without pretending to know what’s best for some other adult. What someone does with their life is their own responsibility. What I do with mine is mine.

    I’m not my brother’s or sister’s keeper; to be someone’s keeper is to be their master and to think that I know more than they do about what is right for their own sanity or life or what-have-you. Neither do I allow anyone to be my keeper; no one has the right to decide for me what I can or cannot do. I am neither master nor slave.

    I espouse, and will continue to do so, freedom of choice. My choices are my responsibility. With that choice comes consequences, good and bad and indifferent. I accept that. I am not asking anyone else to live my life; I will not live anyone else’s life either.

    If a person asks to be with me, if they want to be with me whether for love or money based on whatever their reasons for their own well-being is, that’s on them. It’s then my choice to accept or decline based on my own reasons and well-being.

    ALL people are responsible for the things they choose to do or not choose to do (doing nothing is still a choice by default). The real morality issue here is that not all people are willing to take responsibility for their own actions.

    I am taking responsibility for my own actions. So are the women I’ve seen on this board so far. And, I suspect, so do you despite what I see as attempts to make us into altruistic, “brothers’ keepers.”

  31. P.S. Trying to make someone feel guilty for what they do only works if the person feels even a seed of guilt to begin with. We don’t.

  32. Ironically, sex workers are sometimes criticized for ruining marriages so we can get money, but marriage is also very much about money. Marriage has historically been a financial transaction and in some cases still is. There’s a lot of money to be made in marriage and getting married often costs much more money than hiring a sex worker does, for services or entertainment. Thus, various businesses also really bank off of marriage. Does this mean we should abolish the institution of marriage?
    Also, disputes over money are the leading cause of divorce in the U.S., not sex workers. There’s another example of how marriage is so intertwined with money.
    Nonetheless, sex workers have every right to make a good living. The people who complain about us being sex workers are probably the same people who would complain if we weren’t working at all or if we were living off of just public assistance (another stigmatized group).
    Some people have the attitude that we should be working, but only if it’s within the constraints they approve of. Nobody else is paying my bills and living expenses for me, so I don’t have to answer to anybody for how I make a living. It’s interesting how the people who complain about us being sex workers almost never offer to pay our bills and living expenses for us, unless they can also have control over us.

  33. @whybother,

    Please answer my question. If you want discourse and responses to your questions from me. This is a two way street.

  34. Which question? The few I see, in and around the rest of your words, are phrased in such a way that you will refuse to acknowledge that our answers are legitimate to us. At best they’re rhetorical. At worst, they show as much a close-minded bias as the survey.

    In any case, be reminded that those questions not based solely on facts, will always be answered subjectively. There is fact which can be quantified and there is experience which can’t be. Somewhere between both of those is our perspective, our truth that we learn to live with.

  35. Sorry Jill – I thought it was whybother who had asked that! mea culpa!

  36. @Jolene, no problem

  37. @Whybother,

    The suffering of the wives and children is because of betrayal of trust by the husband and father. I am nothing more than the conduit that causes that dynamic. If not me, it would be someone else.

    Whatever harm I have caused in prostitution is far less than what I’ve likely caused in other “straight jobs”. Working at a non profit call center for debt settlement solutions that buried families into 5 year debt management plans that left them with too little money to live and a ruined credit rating probably did far more harm to far more families than any of the sex work. That bothered me far more than anything related to sex work.

    While I made very good money as a runaway teen prostitute, it all went to a pimp. Thus he was your heroin dealer. Sex work now is to keep food on the table. I’m not apologetic about that. Nor am I a heroin dealer equivalent.

    Bottom line is the man who has a family and lies about fidelity is responsible for the harm to his own family. Not me. I didn’t force him.

    now answer my question

  38. What would you say to Congress about our industry ?

    Tomorrow craigslist is sending their le liason to speak to congress about trafficking.

    The craigslist blog is being moderated by their staff…

    theres only 30 people on that staff so right now might be the closest we ever get to speaking to congress.

    theres a link to the blog on the left side of craigslist maiin page…. please use it…

    craigslist isn’t trying to ride the multi-million dollar victim train that so many others have been cashing in on…

    this is one hell of an opportunity for us…

    get the word out to every girl you know. .. please post on that blog now….. the person reading it is speaking to congress tomorrow. … and this person will have quite of lot of REAL statistical data to show them…

    @The Untoward Lady,

    my lil retarded friend bears very little resemblance to someone with a learning disability or mentall illness….

    the term retarded has not been applied to these people for many years because it has become widely known that many of these people are actually quite intelligent but their thinking processes are just different. They are most certainly not ‘retarded” and in fact, many are quite intelligent.

    a retard is someone who’s thought processes are slow or blocked… i most certainly do not apogize to the retards of the world because these are the people who choose to “retard” their own thought processes by “blocking” information which is presented to the contrary of their own beliefs, and it is often done for their own personal gain.

    However, i do apologize because no matter how valid or applicable the insult was, it ‘s just not nice to point…

  39. SWA,

    Right on, as always.

    Marriage = $$$ (e.g. Elin Nordegren)

    Jenna,

    Thanks for the CL-related announcement!

    XX

  40. @Jenna

    So if I refuse to agree with you, I’m retarding my own thought process because I won’t let in the angelic and truthful light of your arguments, but if you refuse to agree with me it’s because I’m just a big stupid jerkface. I really don’t think you’re being fair here, and it’s beyond ironic that right after you say how I’m blocking information for my personal gain. You’re the one that stands to benefit monetarily from not accepting my point of view, not the other way around. The only thing I stand to gain (at least on this board) by not accepting the prevailing wisdom about sex work being ethical is hate and derision. Honestly I don’t even know why I bother to talk to you though, because no matter what I say you just come back at me with venom and name-calling. You’re the one that can’t see me as a person, imo.

    @Jill

    I don’t like pimps anymore than you do, and I think it’s horrible that you were treated badly by them. Truly. I hate victimization wherever it happens, including when it’s prostitutes doing the victimization or the exploitation, or the dickhead husbands lying to their wives. I honestly don’t think that many of you women understand how demeaning it is to have to pay for sex. I’ve never been with a prostitute, but I have been to strip clubs, and I never left feeling like anything but a loser. It doesn’t feel good to be looked at like an ATM machine, to have someone that doesn’t see you as a person at all, just a means to an end. Something to be USED. I agree that it’s damn hard to find any kind of job in this fucked up shithole of a world we live in where you’re not in some way participating in screwing people over, but at least if I’m not selling my body, I’m keeping ONE little place for myself as something sacred. There is something of me that is not for sale to the cold and heartless world.

    To get back to the heroin analogy though, if a prostitute is operating independently, she’s essentially her on pimp. If heroin can be compared to physical affection (and I’m sure you ladies know how MUCH we men need it), how is it that different? Can I justify dealing heroin by saying if it wasn’t me it’d be someone else? Perhaps, but I don’t know how any person with an ounce of humanity could do so knowing THEY played a part in facilitating the destruction of the junkie, or, in the case of a prostitute screwing a married man, a family. I mean have none of you ever wondered if you got paid money that would have otherwise bought someone’s daughter a shiny new bike?

    And as for why I care: isn’t it obvious? I’m not religious, so what else could it be? Here’s a hint:

  41. i did not say that the bible supports prostitution… i said that it doesnt oppose it…. prostitutes are sinners, not criminals …..

    thats why jesus stopped the stoning.. .. prostutition is a sin…… but sinning isn’t a crime.

    don’t judge … dont make my sin a crime

    God offers salvation and forgiveness and acceptance to prostitutes. It’s in the Bible, Matthew 21:31-32, TEV. “Jesus said to them, ‘The tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the Kingdom of God ahead of you. For John the Baptist came to you showing you the right path to take, and you would not believe him; but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him.”

    God includes the prostitute Rahab among those saved. It’s in the Bible, Hebrews 11:31, TLB. “By faith—because she believed in God and His power—Rahab the harlot did not die with all the others in her city when they refused to obey God.”

    not that i actually expect this information to get through to you but i didnt want you to think i couldn’t post a rebuttal.

  42. !whybother,

    But if the men are demeaned by having sex with a prostitute? Then stop. Then maybe they just don’t have sex.. It is what it is.

    As far as strip clubs. The women are working. There is no secret that it’s a show. that you are paying for. I’m not sure I understand why it wouldn’t be seen as such. I’ve had arguments with men before about how they feel they can “get”a stripper. And that it’s different. Well, maybe, but probably she is doing her job. Her job is to make the sale. Just like everyone else in sales. I don’t buy a car and assume that the car salesman see me as anything but an ATM. Nature of the beast..

    too sleepy to continue tonight

  43. How did a debunking of a pseudoscientific study turn into a religious discussion about the morality of sex work?

    This is why trolls are bad for movements. Whybother has pretty effectively derailed a potentially very valuable discussion, in this case about a piece of pseudoscience that we might have to defend against in the future, into a tired old rehash of tired, cookie cutter arguments that everyone here has gotten bored with eons ago.

    Nobody here is benefiting at all by arguing with this person. Nobody is getting “better at arguing” because, quite frankly, we’ve seen these arguments so often in the past that they’re just tired. Besides, the people who roll them out are unlikely to listen to us anyway.

    The only person here who’s gained anything at all when it comes to their ideology is whybother. Why? Because in baiting us and distracting us away from a truly valuable topic that we, as a movement, need to discuss whybother has successfully prevented us from unifying and has prevented us from reaping the rewards of the valuable dialog we might have otherwise had!

  44. I’ve been listening, and I’m not trolling.

  45. And I think it would benefit your movement if you could answer my tired questions without resorting to anger (not you specifically Untoward, you’ve been quite measured in your responses). If you want to change the general public’s mind about these issues you’re not going to have much success if you can’t find a way to address those that are queasy or threatened by sex work as prudes, zealots, or *ahem*, retards.

    I also think that your message might benefit from a little more understanding of the male point of view in regards to female sexual power.

  46. the general public doesnt have any problem with sexwork as long as its consensual.

    poll after poll shows more than 3/4 of the country thinks law enforcement should leave consenting adults alone.

    i dont need to change anyone’s mind and i wouldnt try as i appreciate “other” perspectives.

    what i dont appreciate is greed. http://actioncenter.polarisproject.org/

    these anti-prostitution campaigns are not based upon any actual perspective other than greed.

    victims are a multi million dollar business, not for traffickers because in actuality, there’s not much market for children in the us because the penalties greatly outweigh any profits or gains for both the buyer and seller, which is good.

    100,000 victims = millions of dollars to help the victims.

    have you ever read of a story in the news regarding a child prostitute found in the us ? i never see them. i hear about these victims but where are they ?

    i know they found a handful of 17 year olds on craigslist over the years. never heard of a child being found prostituted anywhere in the us. just vague references to “victims” but never an actual victim.

    i would think dudes would just go to asia for that.

    i’m not trying to change your mind.. NOT at all… i am not trying to tempt any man to cross over to my side… i do not ever want to ever do that. .. you are welcome to believe that what i do is immoral for whatever reason you want. you can look down on me, you can call me names if that’s what makes you feel better, please do it, it doesnt bother me at all.

    dont throw stones at me.
    that makes me angry.

    i have every right to be angry. angry as hell. you better believe it and if you don’t like it, i suggest you put that rock down and stay the h*ll away from my bedroom. when you stop putting me in jail, i’ll stop being angry.

    a few greedy people have been riding a multi million dollar victim train but i havent seen any victims on it.

    i want prostitution to be illegal….. it has to be.. as a nation we cannot handle the legalization of it yet.

    but just like many many many laws, i want the law to be enforced when it’s necessary. the pubic doesnt think it’s necessary.

    congress does and not because they’re reading the bible.

    ALL ADVOCATES: Take Action on Federal Legislation to provide crucial funding to combat sex trafficking!

    (August 6, 2010)
    Legislation is now under consideration to provide help to child victims of sex trafficking. More than 100,000 children are victimized in the US each year in commercial sexual exploitation and prostitution. And for those who are rescued, little help is currently available. However, federal legislation is now under consideration in Congress, and with just a few months left before Congress adjourns, your action is critical to moving the bills forward. Please take action now!

    every single article on the front page of the polaris project’s website, is regarding contacting legislators. not one of them has anything to do with helping them or finding them.

    now ask yourself who’s exploiting victims ? i wont tell you what you should think. you can think whatever you want and i wont be angry with you or insult you as long as your opinion has some factual basis.

    if you’re scared of sexually powerful women, thats a whole different topic right ?

    but just so you’re aware, i’m not trying to appeal to every man.. i only want to appeal to the men who are already appealed to me as i am.. i have zero plans to change myself to suit anyone and i have zero desire to change anyone’s mind about anything.

    i’m ok with you not liking me. i dont need your acceptance or approval. i like myself. i dont need anyone else to do that for me.

    this is about the facts. i’m telling you truth.. i will sugarcoat it if you pay me.

    its not about your opinion, your religion or your sexual issues.

    congress has been lied to and defrauded out of millions of dollars and that is a fact that will become evident to them tomorrow when they see the actual statistical data brought to them from the craigslist law enforcement liasion.

    since congress is our nation’s pocketbook, my “movement” will be taking great strides forward tomorrow, whether your mind is changed or not.

    however, apparently, the washington post has already changed their minds a mere 6 hours after they published the announcemnt of craigslist speaking to congress, they published the ’5 myths of protitution’ and its a pretty decent article about the industry… its almost even accurate…. Quite the “change” from the front page they published a few weeks ago with the “victims” crying and pleading craigslist to shut down and stop the exploitation of victims.

    despite repeated requests from craigslist so they could look into it, no actual names were provided.

    i think that money train is about to make a stop.

    craigslist has ever right to be pissed. they’ve been demonized, harassed, just like we are.

    i predict 17 attorney generals will have their heads on a platter, facing a $36 million lawsuit and possibly criminal charges, along with all these anti-trafficking organizations unless they find themselves 100,000 victims REAL quick.

    Most of these anti-trafficking organizations also have a financial interest in classified ad websites that are trying to compete with craigslist. i suspect (just my opinion ) some of those attorney generals have a finger in the that pie too.

    when the heads start rolling, you’ll see minds change.

  47. @Jenna Purr, great response!
    @ Whybother, once again, the anger you were the recipient of here was because of *how* you said things, not what you said. Your first post was way abrasive, and while it is your right to be abrasive, that right also got you an abrasive response.

  48. “BUT I LIKE EASY MONEY FOR FUCKING PEOPLE’S HUSBANDS! SCREW THEIR SKANK WIVES, THEY SHOULDN’T HAVE GOT FAT!”

  49. I’m glad The Shapiro study got analyzed on this forum and by women who actually work in the field. I have experience as a dancer, not escorting, so though I do have a perspective to offer, it is limited by my experience.

    I am saddened by the anger out there (“whybother” would be an example, as well as other dancers who I’ve heard bashing escorts) towards women who make money from selling sex. If two adults consent to a situation, then that is enough for me. Of course I also understand that people get manipulated into agreeing to things they don’t really want because someone exploits their fear, lack of resources or knowledge. But people can also make health sexual decisions–even if they involve money, or other situations that are stigmatized, like dominance and submission and sadism and masochism–and be happy. I’ve been screwed over by S&M but that doesn’t mean that it is inappropriate just because it didn’t work for me. That doesn’t mean that it is wrong because it was wrong for me. Once we can make a large enough to space to talk about the variety of sexual decisions and be respectful towards people involved in them, then I think we”ll be able to make some headway and have sexual health services that reflect the multitude of sexual decisions out there, be they S&M and dominance and submission (and believe me, this is also a very large underserved population) or polyamory, or sexual services for money.

    FYI, if you want to know what is going on in the trafficking movement, check out the facebook page for Somaly Mam Foundation. Has powerful backers and also behind craiglist shutdown. She is against trafficking of children (me too!!) and sexual slavery (me too!), but unfortunately takes it a bit far…

  50. Yuck. Why bother letting whybother post? So typical, so standard, so brainwashed. No not religious, just morally judgemental and who gives a damn where you got the morals, because the judgement makes it all smell like shit.

  51. FW, even though this is a private venue, the owner is allowing whybother the same rights to post as you and me. Although it appears that whybother doesn’t know how to disagree without being disagreeable, he has every right to disagree with us.

    Besides, if we didn’t hear from those who disagreed, how would we know that others are hearing what we’re saying? If only those who agree were represented here, we’d be “preaching to the choir.” That, in turn, wouldn’t give us a chance to sharpen our persuasive skills and learn to keep our tempers in the face of hate.

  52. FW and Jolene,

    No one actually “owns” BnG, there are people who run it. We are letting most of whybother’s comments through because we believe in free speech. However, I chose not to respond (after my initial response). I’m a sex worker and I don’t believe in giving attention-seeking people my attention for free. But that’s just me.

    XX

  53. I support free speech too, but not hate speech. The writing in all caps is unnecessary and Internet yelling.
    It’s interesting how some of the people who talk about how sex workers are such bad people act badly themselves. Nobody else on here is writing in all caps.

  54. @Whybother

    if someone’s husband sees me, it’s more often because they love their wife, not because they don’t.

    Men have physical needs. They do. If a wife isn’t fulfilling them for whatever reason, is he supposed to just forget about his needs ?

    Should he seek a divorce because of it ?

    Most of the husbands tell me they love their wives and I believe them because if they didn’t, they’d be looking for a replacement for her instead of a supplement.

    If you want to talk or if sending hate-mail will make you feel better, you may contact me directly at jennapurr.latte@gmail.com

    The hate doesn’t bother me, but I’d rather help, if possible.

  55. FW’s just mad at her cats…as usual. Whybother reminds me of a subby I had once. Would always bring the attitude whenever he wanted a spanking. Well, he hasn’t earned it so that’s that.

    I think Stacey Swimme, Founder of Sex Workers Outreach Project said it best on The Alyona Show. Some people gotta get elected. Of course they claim this has nothing to do with freedom of speech but this video would make one wonder…

  56. am i reading this correctly ?

    On this website:
    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=40

    The Bureau of Justice Statistics reports that
    between jan 2007 and sept 2008, a period of almost 2 years, there were 391 allegations of child sex trafficking in the us.

    At the time of the report only 10% had been confirmed, over 20% were invalid.

    ????????????

  57. Jenna,

    If you REALLY want fun reading, do research on all the sweeps in the last few years under the Innocence Lost initative. OMG. The number of arrests of consenting adult sex workers vs the number of arrests/rescues of minors. That stat you just quoted? Those are the GRAND TOTAL of minors found under the Innocent Lost thing over the past 3 years or so.

    XX

  58. Divinity, you totally cracked me up over the “subbie” analogy. Right on! Talk about topping from the bottom and trying to piss people off rather rationally discussing matters.

  59. I don’t know if anyone is reading here, but I think one idea mentioned above (by Untwoard Lady if I’m not mistaken, but it may also have been Ms Brooks) about doing a less biased study. I would be all in favor for that.

    Frankly speaking: since Sex Worker associations already exist, why not try to use them as a framework whereby to conduct research on the same issues as the Schapiro group (say, the amount of underage prostitution), but with sound methodology and without ethical violations? I’m sure there are researchers that would be interested.

  60. Asehpe,

    It’s a lovely idea but because they wouldn’t want us to “skew” the results NOR give us money (in case we’re “promoting” prostitution), sex worker orgs are not brought in in this type of research in the US. There HAS been research done by sex worker orgs in the US. Unfortunately, it seems ignored by mainstream media. I’m thinking of the NSWP’s surveys in particular.

    XX

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