KPFA- Norma Hotaling

From Erotic Service Provers Union:

Greetings,
Hey guys, We need to respond to this. Norma Hotaling was on KPFA
saying that the
petition drive is being run by traffickers and madams and pimps just like it was in Berkeley.

http://www.kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=25814


It seems that Aimee Allision, a Green party member and the host of the morning show in KPFA needs to be educated on the issues behind the petition. Call the station and demand a rebuttal show please.

Please call her at 510-848-6767 at ext 265 and email her at morningshow@kpfa.org to educate her about the issues behind the petition.
Thanks
Maxine Doogan

55 Responses

  1. I will have something out tomorrow. Norma’s comments were awful, they are false and deliberate misrepresentations of the truth in an effort to oppose decrim.

  2. XBN and Maxine Doogan address this issue friday 4.18.08 noon eastern http://www.xxbn.net Call in 646 200 3136 or listen on http://www.xxbn.net

  3. Er… I just thought I should point out that the link up there goes to the European Society for Paediatric Urology.

  4. That’s slanderous if she said on air that the petition drive is run by traffickers. Has anybody thought of suing?

  5. I have a call into one of our lawyers.

  6. I just listened to it – it wasn’t even in response to a question or the general line of conversation. Hotaling just kind of threw it in gratuitously at the very end of the program.

    BTW, has there been an attempt to try to get San Francisco to consider some kind of Measure Q type approach? I hadn’t heard about this.

  7. Yes, we’re standing on street corners collecting signatures to qualify an initiative for the nov. ballot. That’s why she’s all over the media promoting her poverty First Offender Prostitution Program. It’s slated to get shut down.

  8. Does one have to be a City of San Francisco resident to sign the petition?

  9. This topic is on http://www.xxbn.net at noon eastern Friday 4.18.08 Please call in 646 200 3136

    Guest Maxine Doogan,

  10. Yes you have to be a registered voter in SF to help qualify the petition.
    But you can help in other ways, Endorsing the petition in the commets section, donations, endorsements from your groups political or community. Help spread the word.

  11. Um…has everyone forgotten that Maxine Doogan is indeed a convicted pimp? Convicted and served time in jail for running an escort agency as I remember. So technically, Hotaling is right, the campaign is being run by pimps.

    Not to mention Robin Few (also convicted) and the strip club pimps and their lawyers who are funding all this.

    Frankly, sex workers who care about their national rep should probably stay far away from Mistress Max and her petition and what is about to happen.

  12. It’s pretty easy to get convicted of things like pandering, money laundering, etc. A conviction does not mean they were causing harm to people.

  13. It seems SAGE’s Norma Hotaling had a few convictions herself. Yet I don’t see senators distancing themselves from her, nor the DOJ, nor radical feminists. In fact she runs a recovery center and education center for others. With arrests in the 30s and prison time, one could say that the radical feminist movement is being run by a felon and being funded by the government to do it.

    Seems Canada wasn’t so impressed with Norma’s convictions when she tried to enter to speak in Edmonton. So before we toss around the convictions barb, Norma Hotaling is not one to be casting stones. I forgetmenot, I would think as to whom I want to make my point with. A for effort but………………..

  14. Forgetmenot – define “pimp”.

    Because it seems like there’s a big difference here between the common understanding of a “pimp” and the legal definition, and that you’re just playing on this confusion to slander Maxine Doogan.

    Sense A – popular definition: A pimp is somebody who forces women into prostitution, controls them through violence, and takes all of their money.

    Sense B – legal definition: Anybody who has a financial relationship with a prostitute is a “pimp”.

    Its pretty easy to be convicted of being a “pimp” in Sense B. This does not remotely mean one is a pimp in Sense A. Trying to turn B into A is a cheap rhetorical trick.

  15. Probably replied under my real name previously – no biggie.

    “strip club pimps and their lawyers who are funding all this.

    Who exactly? Names and some proof, please.

    It seems to me that strip clubs in San Francisco are having no problem running a legal business under the laws as they exist.

  16. I’ve been wondering for a while how you define “pimp” here. (My apologies if I’ve just missed a post on it) I’ve seen several posts saying that you are all against pimps, and I’ve assumed you mean abusive people who trick and coerce others, rather than simply people who run escort agencies, but some clarification might be helpful for cases like this.

  17. Dijril, I can’t speak for the everybody on here, but for me, your assumption is correct. By legal definition, a pimp is any third party who makes a living off of the earnings of prostitutes, so one doesn’t even need to be abusive to meet the legal definition of a pimp. In fact, the criminalization of prostitution encourages abusive pimping, and other abuses as well, such as abuses by certain law enforcement officials who are enforcing the anti-prostitution laws. However, I’m not opposed to people simply running escort agencies, even though I know this can be considered pimping by legal definition. Whenever this word is used, it is important to question how the term is being used.

  18. Pimp is defined in the criminal code state by state, as someone who derives benefit from the earnings of a prostitute. So that would be any worker’s children, the landlord, the dry cleaners and the SAGE project. Inc., a not for profit business, but never the less, a business, that derives benefit from the earnings of prostitutes. The district attorney’s office also derives benefit from the earnings of prostitutes who have to pay to attend their first offender prostitute program run by SAGE. SAGE employees get paid. SAGE gets one third of the fines and fees. The police and the DA split the rest. This is called profiting off the criminalization of someone else’s labor. This is clearly institutionalized exploitation of prostitution of which people like Elliot Spitzer, an elected official derived benefit from by building his career on the backs of criminalizing workers and our customers. And Norma Hotaling, like Elliot, has built her career off the backs of a criminalized work force who doesn’t have the benefit of negotiating for labor and work conditions like she does.

    The story about Jesus who comes upon a woman who’s about to be stoned to death for having sex with a married man, well the ending of that story was that, nobody through stones. But here we have the haters of prostitutes casting stones. Well we ought to expose the whole story of how Norma Hotaling turned states evidence on other workers so she could get out of trouble herself. I know that there are folks around who were there and saw how it first hand. When you collaborate with the police state, our oppressors, our bosses essentially, doesn’t that make you a betrayer or is it just some sort of sickness like Stockholm syndrome?

  19. The dance clubs are in violation of San Francisco municipal codes 1060. They prohibit private booths, yet we they are there. And, there is no permitting required for the clubs like there is for the massage parlor owners and workers.

  20. @forgetmenot

    Regardless of the histories of the people who you so easily seize upon to make your point, you’re ignoring the fact that a: there are a whole lot more of us than Robyn and Maxine

    and b: Robyn and Maxine don’t “run” this movement. They’re contributors and leaders who have a following, but really, there are thousands of us, nobody pays allegiance to any particular style of sex work or people who run agencies.

    It’s cute though, that you can only wrap your brain around this enough to associate thousands of individuals with these two specific women. It demonstrates how clearly you understand the complexities and diversity of the sex work community.

  21. Greetings, I wanted to let everyone know that in the process of asking for support with the petition drive from a Rev. Glenda Hope , I ended up in a meeting with Norma Hotaling of SAGE, a SAGE worker and a director of a safe house yesterday. I wanted to answer questions about the petition but the meeting came to an impasse when the focus was changed to my note taking. I know several of you already know that I have a learning disability. Writing is the best way for me to listen.

    Anyway, I wanted to share lessons learned about meetings in general because it seems to be an issue for us when discussing or debating our issues.
    As many of us already know, just getting our voice to the table to voice our concerns about what’s important to us is a struggle in and of itself.

    One of the main reasons I love organized labor so much is that they are first and foremost for putting the workers voices at the center of any conversation about us. Second, fair formats for democrat meetings have to be agreed upon because one of the tactics the bosses always use is to effect the outcome in their favor. Its one of those things you learn in collective bargaining class. (The petition is our contract. We want a new contract. We want the old one that criminalizes our occupation, repealed.) So having agreements ahead of time about not cutting each other off, not raising our voices, are important to get in writing. Agreeing upon a facilitator who doesn’t take sides during a debate or discussion to better hold the space for participants and audience is always best. The facilitators ought to always locate themselves to the issue at hand too, but agree for the purpose of the meeting to act in a certain capacity for the benefit of the meeting.

    Everyone ought to be given a chance to locate themselves to the topic at hand and state what they want out of the meeting. Folks who claim steak holder privilege ought to actually state what they are attached to for transparency sake in the discussions.
    Ground rules for communication through a process of building group consensus to give everyone a chance to buy into the process so we can get on with how to discuss the content of the meeting. Consequences for breaking the ground rules have to be stated, Enforcement of the consequences has to be agreed upon. Time limits for speaking and the meeting in general can be included in this. Stating specific outcome of the meeting and purpose of the meeting too ought to be agreed upon.

    Maybe Desire alliance can work on some of this kind of skill building in this area this summer.

    Here is another link to another radio show Norma Hotaling did on KQED 88.5 on April 24th 2008

    [audio src="http://kqed02.streamguys.us/anon.kqed/radio/forum/2008/04/2008-04-24a-forum.mp3" /]

  22. “Here is another link to another radio show Norma Hotaling did on KQED 88.5 on April 24th 2008

    http://kqed02.streamguys.us/anon.kqed/radio/forum/2008/04/2008-04-24a-forum.mp3

    I listened to it, and while I usually have a lot of respect for KQED Forum, that was pretty bad.

    Obviously, nobody wants to see underage girls being prostituted, or women of any age being controlled by brutal street pimps, but this program was simply more propaganda that conflated all prostitution with the most brutal forms of prostitution and trafficking. Then using this conflated picture of prostitution as propaganda for “demand reduction”, getting commercial sex ads off of Craigslist, etc.

    Also, I really question how accurate this portrait of a well-organized network of pimps traveling the country and bringing large numbers of vulnerable teen girls into prostitution really is. Anybody know if there really is any basis for this portrait of a “teen prostitution epidemic” in the US?

  23. my question is where is the documentation for these statements and can our researchers verify any of the sighted research?

  24. The highly publicized “sting” operation that took place last year during the Bay Area All Star Game, combined federal (FBI) and local law enforcement and billed as the sting operation to rescue the under age girls that the pimps supposedely bused into to town for the event. Arrested were 137 prostitutes. Only four of which were under eighteen.

  25. According to the FBI, there were 22,387 adult women arrested for prostitution & commercialized vice in 2006, and 519 underage girls arrested for same.

    There were a total of 38,366 arrests for prostitution (both genders) of which 891 were under 18 and 123 were under 15. Kind of strange, don’t you think, since the average age of entry into prostitution is 12 – 14 according to Norma Hotaling (the two year span for the “average age” demonstrates how faulty her research conclusions are IMO).

    In San Francisco in 2005 (most recent year I could find arrest stats for any California county) there were 813 adults arrested for prostitution (of both genders) and 12 juvenilles for same. Statewide totals were 12,893 adults and 537 juvenilles.

    As for whether or not it’s time to introduce an SF city measure similar to Q… it’s tough to say. I can say that going by what I heard when I was on a jury selection less than a year ago, such a measure would pass with flying colors.

    By the time they got around to me, I could tell the judge was fed up with all the claims of impartiality due to the belief that prostitution should be legal. So I had to explain that I really wanted to be selected for this jury and told him that my heart was aflutter the moment I heard them say “647 (b).” Only one woman claimed to be so against it that she couldn’t be impartial, whereas dozens supposedly supported legalization.

    Of course, I wouldn’t really go by what people say to get out of jury duty. I just thought it was amusing at the time.

  26. Go Stephine!
    Those radio shows need to take your call.

  27. oops I mean
    Stephanie

  28. Another sensationalist headlines.
    I spoke to this reporter and she justified her work because the source was SAGE

    http://origin.mercurynews.com/crime/ci_9046514?nclick_check=1

  29. There appears to be a high degree of ignorance among this group about how prostitution works in the 21st century. There seems to be an attempt to look at prostitution as a worker’s rights issue. In fact, to answer one question above, yes, the gangs who move women and girls around the country are very organized and very violent.

    Even where prostitution is legalized or decriminalized, gangs get involved. The profits to be made on women’s bodies are too good for them to ignore. You do know of the Hell’s Angles involvement in Amsterdam, yes? And the Nigerian gangs?

    Some here seem to think of prostitution as some kind of employment issue. If only it could be legalized or decriminalized, the thinking goes, then women could choose it as a job and negotiate their labor rights with someone. Who would this be negotiated with? The pimp? The John?

    In reality, prostitutes are vulnerable due to the nature of the activity. Eventually a pimp will try to lure her with the promise of protection or the threat of violence. At the very least, if she is an economic threat to the gang who controls prostitution in the area, then she will be disposed of.

    Prostitution is a market-based activity. The profits can be enormous. There is high demand for young compliant women. The supply is rounded up from vulnerable populations and often drugged and raped into submission. This happens whether prostitution is legal, illegal or decriminalized.

    You are building a community on the lie that prostitution can be a safe and pleasant occupation. You time could be better spent organizing to help the hundreds of women who are currently suffering at the hands of violent pimps. But that involves confronting things like poverty, crime, violence, gangs, and other organized crime.

  30. Since this entire blog is composed of sex workers (current and retired), we actually do have some clue about how to function as sex workers in a criminalized society.

    None of us claim that decriminalization is going to magically solve all problems, but it will solve a hell of a lot more than criminalization does. Since criminalization DOES NOT WORK, the only other alternative is to try changing the laws. And the best people to propose the changes are sex workers themselves.

  31. >>But that involves confronting things like poverty, crime, violence, gangs, and other organized crime.>>

    Wow, what an impressive idea to match the impressive bravery of posting anonymously. Thank you very much anonymous, your idea is the sex worker rights equivalent of man discovering fire. Your insight is paramount cultural high water marks for our movement.

    Anonymous are you always this incredibly brilliant? None of us will be cold this winter now as fire has been harnessed.

  32. anonymous, on May 7th, 2008 at 3:07 pm Said:

    “There appears to be a high degree of ignorance among this group about how prostitution works in the 21st century”

    The above statement is an insult to those of who actually work in the business. It’s a clear example of how anonymous posters don’t want to take responsibility for their position as oppressors.

    “There seems to be an attempt to look at prostitution as a worker’s rights issue. In fact, to answer one question above, yes, the gangs who move women and girls around the country are very organized and very violent.”

    Where is the documentation for the above statement?

    “Even where prostitution is legalized or decriminalized, gangs get involved.”

    Where is the documentation for the above statement?

    “The profits to be made on women’s bodies are too good for them to ignore. You do know of the Hell’s Angles involvement in Amsterdam, yes? And the Nigerian gangs?”

    Where is the documentation for the above statement?

    “Some here seem to think of prostitution as some kind of employment issue. If only it could be legalized or decriminalized, the thinking goes, then women could choose it as a job and negotiate their labor rights with someone. Who would this be negotiated with? The pimp? The John?”

    How do you explain away those who choose it as a job in it’s criminalized status? This stereotype name calling is what the anti homosexual people like Anita Bryant did in the 70’s. Calling people johns is a kin to calling people niggers. It’s derogatory. Knock it off.

    “In reality, prostitutes are vulnerable due to the nature of the activity.”

    In reality, workers are vulnerable due to capitalism. Non profit corporations are still corporations.

    “Eventually a pimp will try to lure her with the promise of protection or the threat of violence.”

    Oh, you mean like how the dance clubs’ protect workers from being arrested for prostitution by paying off the cops? How the feds don’t investigate the labor rackteering?

    “At the very least, if she”

    ..the he workers don’t count?

    “…is an economic threat to the gang…”

    your referring to gang of the police, the DA and SAGE project right

    …” who controls prostitution in the area, then she will be disposed of.
    (Really, where?)

    “Prostitution is a market-based activity.”

    so says you, the capitalist

    “The profits can be enormous.”

    Where’s your documentation?

    “There is high demand for young compliant women.”

    Where is your documentation for this statement? I want to see some comparative research of 1) young, 2) compliant as opposed to non compliant and 3) women as opposed to men

    “ The supply is rounded up from vulnerable populations and often drugged and raped into submission.”

    Where’s your documentation?

    “This happens whether prostitution is legal, illegal or decriminalized. You are building a community on the lie that prostitution can be a safe and pleasant occupation.”

    Our community is already safe and pleasant and you just don’t want to face the fact nor take responsibility for your position to keep it criminalized and that is what keeps everyone unable to access safety on our terms.

    “You time could be better spent organizing to help the hundreds of women who are currently suffering at the hands of violent pimps.”

    We don’t need you, daddy to tell us how best to use our time. Hundreds of activist already spend time organizing against violent capitalist. It’s called union organizing.

    “But that involves confronting things like poverty, crime, violence, gangs, and other organized crime.”

    We confront all of these things every day, on the street, city hall, state and federal building.

  33. Thank you Maxine

  34. Loved the line: “I want to see some comparative research of 1) young, 2) compliant as opposed to non compliant and 3) women as opposed to men”. This blog is full of “non-compliant” sex workers!

    “Our community is already safe and pleasant” yes it is. And I for one, am thrilled about it every day. I am GLAD sex workers are taking advantage of 21st century techonology and providing resources like this blog.

    XX

  35. I fucking love you Maxine!!!!!

  36. Maxine, great to see you May 1st at the demos. May 1st being International Workers Day. The ILWU stopped work that day for eight hours at all the west coast ports. Of course we all know that the immigrants rights movement brought back International Workers Day on May 1st, 2006.
    The movement for amnesty for all immigrant workers ignited that May 1st, 2006. Millions of workers took to the streets. What followed was the arrest, detention and deporation of over 200,000 immigrant workers. When an ICE raid happens, the whole community is terrorized, children don’t go to school, workers are afraid to go to work, sick folks are afraid to get medical care and families are seperated.
    Who benifits from the criminalization of immigrant workers? The same capitalist who continue to deny full rights and protections.
    Anonymous, who do you think you are to deny rights to any group of workers? You know, there is a campaign to deny unorganized, undocumented workers their full rights and thus continue in a cycle of criminalization, exploitation, corruption, abuse and persecution. They are called the minutemen. You so-called feminists have so much in common.

  37. Does maxine doogan not have access to Google? Just go to http://www.google.com, type in prostitution and gangs and get an education. Try is with pimps too. Try also Hells Angels and Amsterdam. Try ms-13 and prostitution. What I see on this blog are a small group of elitists who want to carve out a little high-end prostitution job for themselves but don’t want to look at what prostitution means for other women. Be careful what you wish for. You legalize or decriminalize and these guys are not going to disappear – they are going to institutionalize. Just like they did in Amsterdam and are doing around the world as we speak. You are not going to be left alone to be an “independent escort”. You are going to be seen as competition by people who have no problem shooting you in the head. I now understand that you really don’t know what you are up against. Good luck to you, if you get what you are demanding you will need it.

  38. Well it’s clear to me that anonymous has the violence fetish going on; ‘shooting you in the head’.
    What are you doing to stop the violence you speak so highly of?

  39. For all of those who support the criminalizing prostitution, Jeane Palfry’s blood is on your hands.

  40. I work to stop the violence every day. But they are better armed and sometimes better organized than we are. Those prostitution profits are buying a lot of guns and computers. Good luck out there everyone.

  41. Arrest stats aren’t really the best way the get an idea of average age of *entry* into prostitution. Anonymous polling would be better.

  42. anonymous Said:

    ‘I work to stop the violence every day.’

    Really, what do you do?

    “But they are better armed and sometimes better organized than we are.”

    Who’s ‘they’?

    ‘Those prostitution profits are buying a lot of guns and computers.’

    yeah, Have you seen those grant proposals for the police? Guns and computers are it!

    ‘Good luck out there everyone.’

    Is this some disengeuous bullshit?

  43. Of a representative sample, of course.

  44. elitist
    One entry found.

    elitism

    Main Entry:
    elit·ism Listen to the pronunciation of elitism Listen to the pronunciation of elitism
    Pronunciation:
    \ā-ˈlē-ˌti-zəm, i-, ē-\
    Function:
    noun
    Date:
    1947

    1: leadership or rule by an elite2: the selectivity of the elite; especially : snobbery 3: consciousness of being or belonging to an elite

    1. Are sex workers and sex worker rights activists in leadership positions? No. Are we ruled by an elite? No, we all speak for ourselves, we don’t tend to censor each other or those with opposing views. Which can not be said by virtually any prohibitionist/rad fem and neo conservative outlets, blogs, etc. We can disagree with each other and not be bounced out of the movement for heresy. One can’t do that as a radical feminist activist/abolitionist without being viewed as pro porn, pro traffcking etc, and banished from the rad fem/prohibitionist group of activists as a heretic.

    We don’t march to one or two elite researchers like say,,, Farley or Hughes and parrot their their views as holy nuggets dropping down as unchallengeable gospel.

    Abolitionists have virtually all of the funding via alliance with Bush through TVPRA, Laura Lederer works for the government, Hughes, the police, etc, get funding from the government. How many here get funding from the government under TVPRA? Or have positions in the government? Elite? Most of us are viewed as criminals.

    2. Selectivity of the elite, snobbery, the new members thing. If we did that anonymous, you wouldn’t be posting here because we would be using genderberg type censorship and no one would know you posted here.

    3 Consciousness of belonging to the elite. Anonymous here is a suggestion from someone you would see as just some patriarchy supporting doltish trollup. Proof read your own material. Anonymous writes “Does maxine doogan not have access to Google? Just go to http://www.google.com, type in prostitution and gangs and get an education. Try is with pimps too. Try also”

    What posture would one be taking by stating something as brilliant as Anonymous’ quote? Perhaps looking down upon others?

    >>What I see on this blog are a small group of elitists>>

    Hmmmm, well since you came here with an arrogant attitude dripping with condescension and derision, it is apparent that you look down upon us, that you came here already “seeing” what you wanted to see and that you have a hair about Maxine.

    >>ou legalize or decriminalize and these guys are not going to disappear <<

    Seems elitist as hell to me to want to keep a population as criminals while alleging working to fight for their social justice. Oh, and about the guys? With the current criminalization structure they are going to disappear how? When? Once again, the question asked by Renegade Evolution and myself over and over. What is the plan to make these men go away? What is the plan? Once again Lennon and McCartney ringing in my ears. Revolution…….
    Anonymous how’s the pic of Chairman Mao?

    Should i even go on about elitism? Proof read your own shit anonymous and while you’re add it for a revolutionary zealot you may want to consider using a name of some sort rather than anonymous. Anonymous kind of appears as say, cowardice.

  45. I understand the opposition to SAGE, absolutely, but I don’t understand why people are trying to play down the problem of underage prostitution? Underage girls shouldn’t be arrested either. The people who abuse them should.

  46. No one is playing down the problem of underage prostitution. The argument isn’t about playing down the problem. It is about the authenticity of absurd statistics saying average age of entry is 13. Statistics like that only make sense with about 400 lines of fine print explaining the formula. That kind of argument about the average age of entry into prostitution being 13 is the equivalent of the newspaper advertisements that say brand new Toyota Camry just 99 dollars a month, followed beneath it with a 17,000 dollar down payment required financed over 84 months and the application of 13 rebates, 11 of which no one qualifies for. It is accurate only in a mathematical formula and applicable only after 13 lines of disclaimers and unrealistic equation.

    Underage girls absolutely should not be arrested. On that we totally agree. Those who abuse them are f.cking pedophiles that deserve prison for a very long time or a nice lethal injection.

  47. The problem with SAGE is that in San Francisco prostitutes are taken to SAGE rather than jail. They are given services and support. That makes pimps very angry. Pimps have invested a lot of time and effort into grooming a prostitute and think of her as their property.

    SAGE is quite effective at giving women options other than prostitution and when they do, the women leave prostitution. Some people here seem to think that is a bad thing.

    Not everyone who is in prostitution wants to be there.

  48. Reality check,
    Underage workers are arrested for prostitution and the consequences for this group are equally if not more catastrophic than for the over aged workers.

    This is a story about a 17-year-old runaway who was living with a 29-year-old convicted sex offender, police said. Like we can believe anything they say.

    http://www.contracostatimes.com/news/ci_9045340?nclick_check=1

    And then there is the San Francisco Police Officer who got caught in his car in Oakland where he’s paid her $50 for sex with a 14 yr old.

    http://digg.com/odd_stuff/S_F_cop_charged_with_having_sex_with_14_year_old_first_time_prostitute

    Which results in help wanted ad for a ‘Residential Counselor’, an extension of the prison industrial complet, on craigslist!

    “Our initial work is to stabilize each resident in life and in school. This includes the help of weekly therapy/counseling; enrollment in Independent Living Skills Program (ILSP), tutoring, Standing Against Global Exploitation (SAGE), Renaissance (a program that helps with job skills and training), Oasis (promotes girl empowerment in all facets of life); a Court Appointed Special Advocate (CASA); an Individual Educational Plan (IEP) if necessary; a house Social Worker; and an educational mentor. Our aim is to be role models, which demonstrate a family structure that doesn’t include violence. Our goal is to enable these youth to complete their education, prevent delinquent behavior, reduce recidivism, and prepare them for emancipation into independent living and become thriving citizens.”
    http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/npo/660919197.html

    Not only are underage workers arrested, they are trafficked into these ‘safe housing’ by their court appointed probation officers where they, as juvenile’s can be held indefinitely, even until they are 18. Which is a possibility if you don’t subscribe to their version of ‘thriving citizens’.

    Andrea Shorter, an employee of the Juvenile Justice Department in San Francisco, sits on SAGE’s board. She also sits on the SF Commission on the Status of Women. That’s so state sponsored trafficking right there by feminist. Cha Ching!

  49. Luca,

    We’re all aware not every sex worker is there by choice. Changing the laws will make leaving the work that much easier when the women aren’t viewed as criminals. (Social stigma is a different matter, but at least they won’t have the legal system against them.)

    We have a report on this blog by Lisa Roelling, who went through the entire SAGE program and graduated, but still was unable to use any of the “skills” they gave her and was unable to find non-sex work employment.

    As for accussations of elitism, I personally feel that the ones who will benefit most from decriminalization are street workers — the ones who face the most dangers from criminalization.

  50. luca, on May 8th, 2008 at 8:40 pm Said:

    ‘The problem with SAGE is that in San Francisco prostitutes are taken to SAGE rather than jail. . ‘

    This isn’t true. Many workers are trafficked into jail first and then through the court system before they are coerced into picking SAGE over jail/fines. Did you not listen to SWOP-East’s blogtalk radio interview? Get a clue or is it that you already have made up your mind and you don’t want to learn anything new?

    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/swopeast/2008/05/03/XBN-Samantha-Majic-PhD-student-at-Cornell-

    ‘They are given services and support.’

    Workers are given charity now that they are out of work.

    T’hat makes pimps very angry. Pimps have invested a lot of time and effort into grooming a prostitute and think of her as their property.’

    Where is the documentation for this statement?

    ‘SAGE is quite effective at giving women options other than prostitution and when they do, the women leave prostitution.’

    Where is the documentation for this statement? Why did the feds do a 12 million dollar study on how effective it was to traffick men through their shame based sex negative sex school of horrors instead of doing one on how effective SAGE is when giving options for women? My best are that they already spend money on that study and didn’t like the results they got so now they won’t publish it?

    ‘Some people here seem to think that is a bad thing’

    What people?

    We are talking apples and oranges here. How do you expect to be taken seriously when you aren’t even talking about the same issues. You people say you care for sex workers, but now what we say.

  51. Luca, I realize that not everybody in prostitution ideally wants to be working in prostitution, but that doesn’t mean people want to be persecuted for working as prostitutes or coerced into SAGE by being put under the ultimatum-either go to prison or go to SAGE. If SAGE is really serious about helping sex workers in prostitution, then this organization can advocate against the persecution of sex workers in prostitution rather than profitting of off this. Also, though I support programs to help people who need and want the help, I don’t support coercing sex workers into programs with the threat of prison time.

  52. Have the results of the SAGE audit come out yet?

  53. Speaking of elitism, Anonymous, what about the elitism among sex work prohibitionists who deny the experiences and persepectives of sex workers if differ from their. This is downright oppressive. Thoughout history, oppressors have tried to silence people who they can’t use for their own selfish reasons to promote their own agendas, and the same is happening today in terms of how the sex work prohibitionists try to silence sex workers if they can’t use us to promote their prohibitionist agenda that harms sex workers. So, if you want to write about elitism, be sure to mention that.
    Also, I suggest that you acknowledge your own elitism before you accuse us of being elitists. You come on here and start telling us how we’re ignorant about sex work, even though many of us have experience working in the sex industry. When you act like that, you come across as being ignorant, and you also come across as being elitist.

  54. BTW I’m not the same person as the “anonymous” who is arguing pro-SAGE and who called y’all elitist. Maybe I should give myself a handle or something, idk.

  55. and the name calling continues. It seems that anyone who questions the slave owners’ are called pimps and traffickers.

    http://www.spiked-online.com//index.php?/site/reviewofbooks_article/5027

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