A judge Deni ally opposes our position in a philly blog

Jill Brenneman writes:

This was posted on one of the probably 50 blogs I posted the liveblog notice on. I believe Kathy Hogan may believe her 30 year friend’s position, which everyone has friends and believes in them, but I also think at best Kathy Hogan is being played by her friend Judge Carr. That the Bar Association also dropped the hammer on Deni contradicts that this is all a contrived media story.

Sorry, Kathy, I can respect that you believe in your friend. But I don’t buy this being a media/political conspiracy.

Below is Kathy Hogan’s statement.

Kathy Hogan has left a new comment on the post “Judge drops rape charges in gang rape“:

The part of this story you don’t know is that this was a manipulation of the press by political operatives, who purposely fabricated a twisted version of the facts right before an election, to smear Judge Deni’s reputation for political reasons that have nothing to do with the case they used to launch the campaign against her.

Once they got one paper to print their twisted version of the facts, the other papers piled on, repeating the false facts from the first story.

What you think happened is not what happened, and her political opponents knew they had her over a barrel, because the rules of judicial conduct prevent her from arguing the facts of a pending case in the press.

The operatives accomplished their goal, which was to create a public outrage to fan the flames of a public drum beat to remove Judge Deni from office.

Some people will not find it easy to accept that they were played.

Others who know how politics are played in Philly will acknowledge that what I am saying has a certain familiar ring of truth to it.

I have known Judge Deni for better than 30 years. I am telling you that what you read in the papers, and the firestorm that was created out of it, was a calculated political manipulation that had nothing to do with the truth.

47 Responses

  1. Funny, this is nearly identical to an email sent to me a week or so ago informing me that I was an unwitting dupe of the DA’s office. Except that mine was sprinkeled with expletives here and there.

    It never occurred to her that I perhaps did my own research into the matter–I have never had ANY contact with Rich DeSipio or anyone else from that office. I didn’t launch Deny Deni because I read a story in the newspaper. The Philadelphia Sex Workers’ Health and Safety Task Force, a coalition of non-profits, government agencies, and grassroots organizations who are trying to work together to reduce the harm and death risks to sex workers across the city, investigated the case in it’s October monthly meeting. The meeting happened on the same day as the Daily News story broke. Through that investigation I spoke with several people who attended the hearing in various capacities and learned how accurate Jill Porter’s account was.

    Because the task force is an apolitical body, it was unable to address the issue with the fervor that I thought it deserved. I chose as an outraged private citizen, a sex worker advocate, and believer in human rights to let people know of her appalling decision .

    Frankly, I don’t really care that Deni was a member of NOW thirty years ago or that she has, on occasion, renedered decisions that have been favorable to some women. She has a longstanding reputation as having a bias against sex workers.

    And to claim that this was all brought about by political operatives is an attempt to obfuscate the fact that she threw out all rape charges when the woman was held at gunpoint by four men and forced to submit to unprotected sex while she begged to be allowed to return home to her infant daughter.

    Not to mention, how does Kathy Hogan justify comments such as this case “minimizes true rape cases and demeans women who are really raped”?! It doesn’t matter whether or not the DA doesn’t like her or wants to manuever to get her out of the way–she dug this grave all on her own.

  2. She left the same comment on our blog today too. My first thought was the same as yours, about the statement from the PA Bar Association contradicting the ‘played by the media’ theory.

    My second thought was about this article:

    http://www.philly.com/dailynews/local/20071012_Jill_Porter___Hooker_raped_and_robbed_-_by_justice_system_.html

    Is Kathy Hogan claiming that all of Judge Deni’s quotes in that article are fabricated? Because what’s the difference between those statements and “arguing the facts of a pending case in the press”? Also, this doesn’t seem like the most natural case to choose to build a “calculated political manipulation” around, especially since retention votes are apparently so difficult for judges to lose.

  3. Kathy Hogan may wish what she said about her friend Judge Carr were true, but it is obvious from the facts of the case either Kathy is being played by her friend or she is herself a political operative trying to spin the story for Deni.

  4. I googled around and saw that Kathy Hogan had posted a defense of Deni in a number of places. What Hogan consistently fails to mention in any of these is any kind of additional facts that would challenge the story we’ve all heard so far. Only that Deni is supposedly barred from stating the “real facts” of the case and that unnamed “political operatives” planted the story.

    On Violet Socks blog, Hogan claims that Deni went for an armed robbery of services conviction as a way of getting a sure felony conviction. But how does that square with Deni’s own statement that the case “minimizes true rape cases and demeans women who are really raped”, something nobody has denied Deni actually said.

    I also came across this interesting piece of background info from a commentator on Phillyblog:

    “Wow, Teresa Deni did that?? I was actually good friends with her back in the 1970s (back then she called herself just “Teresa Deni”.)

    You know, she is a lesbian and a feminist (back in the 70s she belonged to Dyketactics, in fact), why would she rule that way?”

    If this is really true, its once again a case of a “feminist” who needs to go back and revisit Feminism 101. Or Human Rights 101, for that matter.

  5. I am not a ‘political operative,’ please! There’s no reason we can’t be responsible and , respectful, even if we disagree. I have no personal beef against people who were upset by what they read in the papers.

    I don’t think “Judge Deni can do no wrong” BECAUSE I’ve known her for more than 30 years, come on now, that would be ridiculous. It’s the other way around.

    I have chosen to have Judge Deni as a professional colleague and friend for more than 30 years because I know her to be a woman of honor and integrity.

    Saying I posted my comments elsewhere, right, just as many of the bloggers have been doing, I am responding to the blogs I see. Can’t I respond on other blogs? Give me a break!

    It is ironic that you and others point to the statement from the Bar Association as a reason that you believe the people who piled on against Judge Deni.

    In addition to the fact that what she said was wrong, that statement was issued by an individual who represented herself as speaking for the Bar Association, when she had no legitimate right or authority to do so.

    You want to say I am the one being played, fine. We’ve already had one situation where freelance accusations were wrong, let’s not make it worse.

    At least have the humility to admit that there is a chance that what I told you is true. Won’t you at least consider the possibility?

    Judge Deni has extended the services of her court many times to reach out to prostitutes, in genuine and compassionate ways, to assist them with job assistance, drug rehabilitation, and other services.

    You ought to be able to at least consider the possibility that maybe this (I say “manipulated and orchestrated”) media attack on Judge Deni right before an election was MAYBE the result of people with an agenda of their own to advance.

  6. Kathy:

    You spend a lot of time telling us that what we’ve read is NOT the truth. Yet you provide no information about what the truth actually is. That’s a tough sell. You’ll have to work a bit harder…

  7. Kathy do you have any information to substantiate your statements? Again, it is admirable that you are standing up for a long time friend. I respect that. But you have offered nothing to repudiate what the media has said about Judge Deni.

  8. Kathy in response to your question of if we could accept the possibility that we were mislead by political operatives or the media. I can only answer for myself.

    Theoretically sure it’s possible the media and political operatives have spun a story to harm Judge Deni before the election.

    However, not much about that adds up.

    1. Nothing has been presented to repudiate what has been said other than discussion of a wide ranging conspiracy against Judge Deni offering no substantiating evidence. Without that the conspiracy theory reads as either a red herring or a friend of Judge Deni’s who is believing what her long time friend gave as her side of the story. Which my assumption would be Judge Deni would tell her friends and supporters that this is all a conspiracy and that the truth is being twisted. That is often the response in this situation. Were you in the courtroom that day Kathy? I’m not accusing you of throwing a red herring up, but I’m wondering if Judge Deni has or if she is manipulating the truth to save face with her friends. She wouldn’t be the first.

    2. If the statements are not true, than what were the circumstances surrounding the raped prostitute? Why was the defendant let off on a theft of services charge?

    3. Why hasn’t judge Deni responded to this firestorm? If she has where can her response be found?

    4. It seems very odd that the media and political operatives would use the rape of a sex worker as a method of creating drama. Society is not typically sympathetic to sex workers in virtually any circumstance. Thus unlikely that the rape of a sex worker would be prime material for creation of a conspiracy.

    Fact is based upon prevailing information Judge Deni dismissed rape charges when a woman was gang raped and reduced them to just theft of services. That is horrific in any circumstance. Telling the truth about her doing that would not be conspiracy to harm her it would simply be reporting an abysmal and horrific judicial decision.

  9. So why is she quoted as saying that this case “minimizes true rape cases and demeans women who are really raped.” and judged it as theft of services?

    Was it because the prostitute was a woman of color? Because she was raped rather than looking for a way out of sex work? Why did she say this? I mean, sure, it’s possible that her political enemies orchestrated this campaign against her, but it looks to me like – if that’s the case – she handed them the ammunition.

    Seriously, her willingness to help prostitutes in those ways doesn’t doesn’t imply that she’s also willing to acknowledge that it’s possible to rape prostitutes.

  10. I think “Kathy Hogan” is a bot. whether it’s totally automated or there’s really a Kathy Hogan sitting there and cutnpasting the same self-penned scribe onto every blog she finds–it’s totally annoying and not worth the bother of arguing with. &!$# P.R. spam. gah.

  11. …oh, apparently she actually responded, sort of. Kathy: nobody cares. Okay? Your friend’s job is safe; why the fuck are you still rabbiting around everyone’s blogs, posting the same damn cutnpaste job and not listening to a word anyone else has to say? Why on earth should we engage you? Do you have -anything- to say about anyone’s points here? Or are you just going to moan more about how -misunderstood- the apparently tenured white privileged judge is? Hello? There are other people here?

  12. I also decided to address our new buddy Kathy’s claims. She came to my blog with the same ridiculous copypasta that she left here. She’s welcome to come and respond, too.

    Kathy Hogan’s “Political Operatives” Idea Regarding Teresa Carr Deni

    By the way, did you guys know that Kathy also has a blog? Seeing as she was “nice” enough to come and post her views on our blogs, perhaps y’all might be interested in returning the favor. The funny thing is, for all the talking she’s doing here, defending Carr Deni, she hasn’t written a word about it on her own space. Here’s the address:

    Kathy Hogan’s Blogger Profile that leads to her blog: Haddon Township II

  13. I just wanted to mention that the above “lesbian and feminist” quote was from the same poster who responded to me with the “shafted hooker” statement.

    I’ve noticed that her posts seem to be paired with Kathy Hogan’s. When Kathy writes there, she responds and tells her she’s great, when Kathy is not around, neither is she. Interesting.

  14. I’m completely perplexed as well as to why this woman is on like thirty blogs or something with the same ridiculous post the day AFTER the election. Her friend’s job is secure, what’s the point?

  15. >I just wanted to mention that the above “lesbian and feminist” quote was from the same poster who responded to me with the “shafted hooker” statement.

    I’ve noticed that her posts seem to be paired with Kathy Hogan’s. When Kathy writes there, she responds and tells her she’s great, when Kathy is not around, neither is she. Interesting.>

    O’Rly.

  16. kathy needs to answer some damn questions, really

  17. As to the suspicions about why I posted some comments after the election, I didn’t my right to post comments ended with an election.

    As for my posting on other sites, right, when I saw such virulent slams being made against Judge Deni, I posted a response. I did not rewrite it every time with different words. Isn’t that alright? Was I supposed to have your blessing?

    As for why I did not post this issue on “my own” blog, actually, it’s a community blog I volunteered to host for a small town in South Jersey, for residents to post THEIR items of local interest. Postings about a fight about a judge in Philly is not appropriate for the site. We post things like cake sales, senior citizen events, leaf pick up schedules, that sort of thing.

    Trying to make the community blog look like something sneaky or suspicious is ridiculous.

    As for whatever the paranoid accusation the post is about for “shafted hooker,” I don’t even get what I’m being accused of on that one, but whatever it is, I didn’t do it, I have no idea who you are talking about, and I am not in cahoots with anyone, about anything pertaining to this or any other blog.

    Some of you have been rational and respectful in your discourse, and I appreciate that.

    Some of you are being somewhat whack-a-doodle, in your many suspicions, bordering on paranoia, plus all the accusations and the name calling.

    Admittedly, I’m going with the descriptive “whack-a-doodle,” but as name calling goes, it’s fairly innoccuous, and at least I’m not droipping the f-bomb on you, as someone saw fit to do.

    Regarding the whack-a-doodles, it’s exactly that kind of “group think” of suspicious minds, the attacking accusations, getting all pumped up in your righteousness, the guessing wrong, and guessing often, perceiving fiction as fact and being so sure about it, all things that contribute to a climate of vigilantiism that is so over the top, and so unfair.

    Why does the bloodlust require the all out destruction and ruination of Judge Deni?

    I guess none of you has ever known what it’s like to be ganged up on and accused of having made a mistake, my you’re a lucky bunch, and compassionate too!

    I’m not Judge Deni’s spokesperson (are you “suspicious” about that?), and I would not presume to speak for her.

    I am certain Judge Deni will continue to abide by the rules of judicial conduct, and will speak for herself when she can, and she will say what she wants to say.

    You can’t goad me into presuming to speak for Judge Deni, to meet your impatient demand for the production of all the facts, and for a detailed explanation of the evidence sufficient to satisfy your every question.

    That’s not the way the legal system works, and it’s as much for the protection of victims as anyone.

    I’m sure this is an unsatisfying answer for those who are out for blood, and I’m sure the ‘whacks’ will, as usual, find something suspicious in this post. (Sigh).

  18. Kathy, what is your position on the rape victim/survivor? What is your account of what transpired? Why would a 19 year old mother and sex worker put herself through the brutal hardship that comes with a sex worker fighting for justice in a rape case? Do you feel there was no rape? Do you feel there was just theft of services? Something obviously happened. What are your feelings not on Judge Deni but on the case itself.

    I’m not being flip or goading. I am asking you for your feelings because I don’t understand where you are coming from other than supporting a friend. Which as I have stated before, I respect that part. That you defend a long time friend and that you believe her account I can understand and respect that even if I don’t agree.

    But what I haven’t seen is anything to counter our position. I understand that you can not speak for Judge Deni. But speaking for yourself. What are your thoughts on my questions? Which I am not playing cross examination with you. You obviously owe me no answers and don’t have to answer. But if you want me or anyone to understand where you are coming from please give us something to understand.

  19. heh…see, it works like this…Jill and most of the women here are very reasonable, polite, civil, all like that.

    I’m the whackjob with the propensity to drop the f-bomb. Especially when people do the whole woe is me, why are you picking on me when I am just trying to defend my friend while never aswering a single question asked of you…

    So, Kathy…what about the victim here?

    Did Deni say the things the news has quoted?

    Do sexworkers just get to expect this sort of bullshit because we deserve it or something?

    If you can’t answer simple, straight forward questions that are REPEATEDLY asked of you….why the fuck should any of us bother listening to, much less engaging with you?

  20. As to the suspicions about why I posted some comments after the election, I didn’t my right to post comments ended with an election.

    This sentence makes no sense and I don’t know what you mean. Furthermore, there were no “suspicions” about your postings, there was outright confusion–why go on a spam-a-thon the day after your friend won? What’s the point?

    I also find it amusing that you are so concerned about swear words all the sudden. You had no problem putting them in a personal email version of your blosgpam that you sent to me.

    I am certain Judge Deni will continue to abide by the rules of judicial conduct

    She hasn’t so far so I don’t know why she would start now.

    You can’t goad me into presuming to speak for Judge Deni, to meet your impatient demand for the production of all the facts, and for a detailed explanation of the evidence sufficient to satisfy your every question.

    No one is asking you to speak for her. People are asking why you are so sure that she is right when people present in the courtroom and people who reviewed the transcripts are adamant that she acted in a callous, biased and malicious way.

    (Sigh).

    Oh, poor you. So put upon! Gosh, it’s almost as horrible as being raped at gunpoint by four guys while you beg for your life and then, when you’re brave enough to come forward against them, to find that the judge doesn’t think rape counts for you–in fact, she even goes as far as to say it to the press. I just don’t know how you go on. What a burden you bear!

  21. Ren, I hate to say this but I think Gregor might actually win a competition of actually answering a question if it were between him and Kathy.

    Gregor actually agrees with us on the issue of Judge Deni.

    Who would have thought either were possible?

  22. mattiethecat Said:

    “I just wanted to mention that the above “lesbian and feminist” quote was from the same poster who responded to me with the “shafted hooker” statement.”

    So “ScorpioRose” was the person who made the “shafted hooker” statement. I think your identification of her as a “radical feminist” was in error – in fact, she’s a self-described Men’s Right’s Activist. (Funny how its so easy to mistake one for the other sometimes.) And an “intelligent design” advocate to boot.

  23. oh god. why is it that the Intelligent Design folks and the Social Darwinists are always the ones that most plainly refute those theories by their very -existence-?

  24. and uh, Kathy? ta ever so for the “innocuous” (and annoyingly twee) moniker; thing is, you go around spamming (yes, really, SPAMMING) other people with moaning about, yep, a conspiracy, against your friend (because that’s by far the most pressing interest to everyone here, fuck knows, the political gamesmanship in Philly), so, I don’t really think it’s appropriate for -you- to be accusing -us- of “conspiracy” mongering. Actually no one thinks you’re a conspiracy; I believe the general consensus at this point is that you’re appallingly clueless and self-absorbed, and that’s a generous interpretation.

    The business about getting paid by the blog was sarcasm. The business about being a ‘bot, well, yeah, I WAS serious at one point, because godDAM woman, you may be nominally human but as far as I’m concerned you still don’t pass the Turing test. I mean I WANTED to believe it; your behavior is just too bizarre and -depressing- to make sense otherwise. People are going, like, “hello? HELLOO???? Clue phone, ring ring ring?” and it’s like, “BEEP* and then another annoying automated telemarketer message. Or a political one, in this case. Whatever. Jesus. “Ain’t I a woman,” you’ve got to be fucking KIDDING. goddam. I don’t know.

  25. >I guess none of you has ever known what it’s like to be ganged up on and accused of having made a mistake, my you’re a lucky bunch>

    there are no words.

    Kathy? Are you reading -anything- here that isn’t about, like, you? And your friend? Do you have any idea where you are. What the purpose of this blog is. Or Bint’s, for that matter, and part of the reason I thought you were a bot is how blandly and easily you just flat out lied and -said- she was from Philly and miffed because she was backing the wrong political horse, or whatever it was.

    No, I mean it: what’s wrong with you?

  26. So “ScorpioRose” was the person who made the “shafted hooker” statement. I think your identification of her as a “radical feminist” was in error – in fact, she’s a self-described Men’s Right’s Activist. (Funny how its so easy to mistake one for the other sometimes.) And an “intelligent design” advocate to boot.

    Heh, that is funny. The link didn’t work but I’m assuming it was to her profile, which I never bothered to read. I labeled her as a “radical feminist” based upon what she’d said about herself in another thread earlier in the Deni campaign. Either she was being facetious or I just simply misread what she meant. I didn’t even know there were women who were men’s rights activists. Deni’s allies really speak volumes about her, don’t they?

  27. As for my posting on other sites, right, when I saw such virulent slams being made against Judge Deni, I posted a response.

    This statement minimizes true cases of virulent slams and demeans women who are really virulently slammed.

    Seriously, please answer the question:

    Kathy, what is your position on the rape victim/survivor? What is your account of what transpired? Why would a 19 year old mother and sex worker put herself through the brutal hardship that comes with a sex worker fighting for justice in a rape case? Do you feel there was no rape? Do you feel there was just theft of services? Something obviously happened. What are your feelings not on Judge Deni but on the case itself.

    You do know why we blogged about this – why we criticized Judge Deni’s court decision, right?

  28. I got the exact same comment in response to each of my posts about Carr Deni. In response I’ve emailed Hogan directly, asking what the facts as she knows them are. I’ll let y’all know if she responds.

    Eric Hamell
    Gondwanaland — stripey7.blogspot.com
    SexFreedomAction — SexFreedomAction.blogspot.com

  29. >Deni’s allies really speak volumes about her, don’t they?>

    Well, this one sure does. ye gods and little fishes. one doesn’t know whether to laugh or cry…

  30. “I guess none of you has ever known what it’s like to be ganged up on and accused of having made a mistake, my you’re a lucky bunch, and compassionate too!”

    Um, yeah, do you know where you are? Do you know who WE are?

    Any attempt to watch mainstream media makes me feel “ganged up on and accused of having made a mistake”!

    As did almost every class on feminism I took in college.

    And all those family members and former friends who don’t think I’m a worthy human being because I’ve made the wrong choices or am a bad influence.

    Hmmmmm. Maybe, after a little public humiliation, Teresa might actually be able to empathize with a sex worker who stands before her in court.

  31. to use a 70’s expression Jessica, Right On!!!!!

  32. Great points, Jessica.

    Although I doubt Hogan and Deni are going to use their new experiences in Internet criticism to find empathy for sex workers or any other minority. Would be nice though.

    XX

  33. Well, that -would- be nice. In the absence of that I’d take a nice steaming cup of Shut The Fuck Up, at least for starters.

  34. “Heh, that is funny. The link didn’t work but I’m assuming it was to her profile, which I never bothered to read.”

    Oops – here’s the link:

    http://www.phillyblog.com/philly/germantown-mt-airy-chestnut-hill/45477-still-call-yourself-feminist-public-2.html#post603771

    Her profile is mainly about intelligent design/anti-evolution stuff. I did a search on the feminist stuff because I was wondering if there now creationist radfems (hey, I’ve seen some strange stuff out of that camp before). I searched Phillyblog and found the above post.

  35. …boy, if it’s not this, it’s that, eh?

  36. and um, okay, -why- is holding a door open for women “chivalry,” particularly? Is that not just y’know common courtesy? Or, what, like, slamming the door in another dude’s face is also part of the Gentleman’s Code? eh, whatever, i don’t speak that crazy moon language, i guess..

  37. scorpio sez:

    “Men can be feminists? They’re called manginas.

    Let’s put it this way: no man I would ever have dated would have called himself a feminist.

    My father was actually very anti-feminist. When his union called the ERA up for a vote, he voted against it. He called women “broads”.

    He did not believe in full equality for all women, but he did for his daughter. See the difference yet?”

    ***

    uh, yeah, yeah, I would say I do see the difference, at that…

    an eerily familiar theme, really. ho well.

  38. Yeah, Scorpio Rose is totally cuckoo for cocoa puffs. I have seen a few times in the last couple of days. Whew!

    So far I have come across four people who have defended Deni–out of the hundreds I have spoken or written with. One is our friend who posts here, a guy on another blog who had that “well, we weren’t there, we don’t know all the facts” crap but later conceded that she was fucked up, my partner’s misogynist boss who thinks that rape rarely truly happens but is usually made up by the woman, and Scorpio Rose.

    Not exactly a brain trust she’s got on her side there…

  39. Seriously not.

    I’ve seen a few loathsome trolls basically blaming the victim here and there. None, however, were calling themselves feminists. thank Maud for small mercies.

  40. that is, along the lines of, well you know the drill, “yes what they did was wrong and they should be in jail, but she shouldn’t have been doing THAT, what did she expect? I’m just telling it like it is blahblahblah”

  41. I support justice for ALL victims of crime, and want the perpetrators to get maximum jail time, and no deals. I have marched in support of the fair and equal treatment of sex workers, in Philadelphia and in New York.

    I don’t know if the prosecutor will be able to prove that the accused in this case held a gun to the head of the victim or not, but if he can prove it, I hope the jury votes to convict this criminal, and that he gets a maximum sentence, and, hopefully, substantial mandatory jail time.

    I also hope the prosecutor will find enough evidence to arrest the other men who were allegedly involved, and that other women who may have been victimized by these same men will be found, or come forward on their own, to help get this scum off the street for as long as possible.

    The prosecutor can file new charges or different ones any time, before any judge. It all depends on what he thinks he can prove.

    I gave the example on another blog that they convicted Al Capone on tax evasion, and put him away, because that was the charge they knew they could prove. I’m sure the families of the loved ones he killed would rather have seen him charged with murder, but a prosecutor has to go with whatever charge stands the best chance of getting a conviction.

    Music promoter Phil Spector shot his lover in the head, and at his murder trial in Los Angeles, a whole line of his ex’s got up and testified that he held a gun to their heads, too. Even with all this testimony, he wasn’t convicted.

    The strength of the evidence, the credibility of witnesses, so many things go into getting to a verdict of guilty, and none of it is easy or predictable.

    It’s the prosecutor’s job to persuade the members of the jury to set aside negative attitudes about sex workers, not an easy thing to do, but it’s getting much better, even in the last 10 years. with more guilty verdicts where the victim is a sex worker.

  42. Kathy –

    It would be one thing if the prosecution simply thought they couldn’t make a make the rape case stick and went for an armed robbery charge as an alternative way of getting a felony conviction.

    That’s not what I see going on here. The judge threw out a rape charge that the prosecution thought it could successfully prosecute. Is this or is this not the case? And did Judge Deni make the following statements when first interviewed by Jill Porter:

    “She consented and she didn’t get paid . . . I thought it was a robbery.”

    The case “minimizes true rape cases and demeans women who are really raped.”

    If any of this is true, this is very much about Deni being anti-sex worker and taking the attitude that prostitutes can’t be raped in the course of their work. Do you have any FACTS to counter this? If not, why should we listen to you?

  43. That’s not what I see going on here. The judge threw out a rape charge that the prosecution thought it could successfully prosecute. Is this or is this not the case?

    Yes, that is correct. In fact, they had been trying to get this guy for some time. This is his regular MO, as several rape advocacy workers can attest. Jill Porter’s original article on the matter references a second case they were planning to bring before Deni but that the DA pulled because of her bizarre ruling. These were not the only two incidents and the DA was thrilled to have two such strong cases against Gindraw so they could finally get him.

  44. I hope Judge Deni can issue a statement. She may not be able to, under the rules.

    The rape advocacy workers you mentioned, if they can get other victimized women to come forward, that would be huge. I hope they’re working on that. It would have been helpful if all this could have been discussed in court during the proceedings, but I get the impression it wasn’t.

    The victim reportedly claimed other things were taken from her by force, and she alleges there was a gun. If they can prove the gun, armed robbery is a good charge, and carries a substantial mandatory minimum. The prosecutor should definitely refile the rape charge, if he thinks he has enough evidence to prove it.

    My sister (Theresa Davies) was raped and murdered by a man who sounds a lot like this guy. In that case, the scum had assaulted three other women the same way, and every time, he got off because the prosecutor wasn’t able to make the charges stick. If her murderer had been convicted sooner, my sister would be alive today. These violent repeat offenders are the worst. They need to be put UNDER the jail, and locked up for life.

    The accused in rthis case sounds like the kind of repeater that will eventually kill someone, if he’s not put away.

  45. It would have been helpful if all this could have been discussed in court during the proceedings, but I get the impression it wasn’t.

    My understanding was that it was. Really, I’m not blowing smoke when I say I’ve talked to a lot of people who were there. This is not an incident of a bungling DA who blew it. DeSipio is renowned for his success with prosecuting rape cases.

    And, again, I state that Deni doesn’t seem to dispute that the woman was held down at gunpoint and forced to submit to sex, she just felt that the initial consent meant the situation did not constitute rape.

    I wish my post from yesterday hadn’t disappeared into the ether because I talked about this there as I recall but the issue is not with the DA. Deni also dismissed two other rape cases that day though I’m not sure if they were as strong or involved sex workers.

  46. I’m sorry to hear about your sister, KH, that’s horrible.

  47. Thanks, Belle, I didn’t say it to get sympathy, but you’re right, it was horrible, and there were many hideous details to get through between the day of the murder and the day we finally got to hear “We find him guilty of murder in the 1st degree.”

    Mattie, you say “And, again, I state that Deni doesn’t seem to dispute that the woman was held down at gunpoint and forced to submit to sex, she just felt that the initial consent meant the situation did not constitute rape.”

    I am not fighting with you about this, and I’m glad you said “doesn’t seem to dispute,” but I know for a fact that Judge Deni would be horrified to hear anyone dare say that rape can’t happen once consent is given.

    I understand why people are so upset about this, but there are a number of things that are just really “off” about this story. I really hope Judge Deni is afforded some opportunity, however restricted, to respond in some way to the attacks.

    Some facts that seem so crystal clear, when everything around them finally comes out, the truth turns out to be something very different, and you know a million of examples of this yourself.

    You are dead certain that, without a doubt, everything the victim alleges is 100% true and accurate, and that she absolutely had a gun held to her head while she was raped. In the end, it may turn out that this is 100% right. We’re a long way from the end.

    The prosecutor can refile charges in front of a judge, a different judge if he wants to, and try to get whatever charges he thinks he can prove. The case is barely begun. The alleged victim is not out any of her rights or remedies, they are all still there, and charges can be refiled.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: